Sounds of the Gulf

Michael: Welcome to the Sounds of the Gulf. The podcast that stretches a hundred and sixty miles at the largest National Seashore in America, Gulf Islands National Seashore. Your National Seashore. Did you know that Gulf Islands National Seashore encompasses multiple barrier islands? From Santa Rosa, to Horn Island, to Ship Island. These barrier islands are very unique. And today, my guess, Jackson, will explain what these barrier islands are and also the, let me give me a second. He sent me this word. The coastal geomorphology.

Jackson: That's right. That's your power word for today. Good job pronouncing it. To explain a little bit, geomorphology is simply the study of how terrain is made and there's no better place to study how terrain is formed than these barrier islands. They're so unique. I'm so excited to share with y'all how they're made.

Michael: Thank you so much for coming on podcast. Before we start, why don't you give the listeners out there a little intro about yourself?

Jackson: Yeah, absolutely and I love talking about myself. So, thank you for this opportunity. My national park story really begins in the 2020. The coronavirus and the pandemic that ensued, gave us all really a chance to go out and explore the great outdoors. And I was certainly no stranger to that. I took advantage of this. I traveled around the country, because, you know, we all had a little bit of free time then. And I explored the beauty of America's National Parks. One of the things that really struck me on my travels was park rangers. They were so informative. They were so passionate about their jobs, and they were excited to share all of that with me and the rest of the public. And I always that stuck with me, and, you know, I was like, you know, I want to be a park ranger too. I'm passionate about this. I want to go study, and I want to share what I find with the public. So, years past, I go to college in the fall of 2020 and, you know, life happens effectively. You know, you change your major six times in a semester. you begin to not want to be, you know, what you thought you were going to be. So, I became a history major. Graduated with my bachelor's in of history in May 2023. And I took what I thought was going to be a summer job here at Gulf Islands National Seashore, but it turned out to be a life defining moment. This job has allowed me to rekindle my fire to be a park ranger. I've loved it. I've loved the enthusiasm here. I loved working outside and with the general public people that share the same interest and passions as me. And it's just been a amazing experience. So, I hope to turn this into a full time thing, even though I'm just an intern, I want to go on and do more in the park service. So, this has been a great moment for me.

Michael: Thanks, Jackson. I know I can relate and probably a lot of listeners with changes in life plans and thinking about what you want to do. Great that you have this passion for National Parks. And part of that passion has been do creating this program about barrier islands. So, could you explain just really quickly what is a barrier island and how is it different from what most people would think of as an island?

Jackson: It's different because it's better. No, I'm joking. barrier islands are very unique structures. They're very fragile. They're very young. I believe these barrier islands are less than ten thousand years old from, Mississippi to Florida. These islands form in pretty much the same way. Glaciers that formed in the last ice age in the Appalachian Mountains. When they began to melt, they began to form a river, the Apalachicola River. These deposited grains of quartz that were shredded over time and became so fine that they became like a powder. Longshore currents that run, east to west then picked these up from the Apalachicola River and move them westward just like the rest of American history, seemingly. But they eventually began becoming deposited. They would form these Peninsulas in the Apalachicola River Basin, and they would be transported along the Gulf of Mexico, making their westward journey to where they are today.

Michael: So, one of the big differences is the sand here at Gulf Islands National Seashore. The sand is almost completely white, and that's because of the quartz. so that's also one of the unique things, but just the sand isn't the only thing that's unique here. Could you explain what's below us right now? So, we're on a barrier island. What's below us?

Jackson: So, anybody that's been to the beach probably knows about sandbars. They're a little raised platform. They're still underwater. Barrier Islands are unique because they're like aboveground sandbars. They get their shape over the course of thousands of years. So, if you were to walk from the beach side where, it all begins to the bay side where the process is still taking place today, you would be experiencing about 6000 years of history walking in that direction. So, they begin to form as sand from either wind or the same longshore currents that go east to west. They pile up sand on these sand bars. They deposit it, and they form these big structures called primary sand dunes and they’re primary because believe it or not, they're the first. So, these primary sand dunes, they sit right on the gulf on the beach side. And they're really the reason why this island exist. Now, Michael, if I were to spray salt water in your face, would you like that?

Michael: No. I would not like that.

Jackson: Honestly, neither would I. And most plants also don't like this, but there's one in particular that can survive these salty conditions from the salt spray from the ocean, and these are sea oats. Sea oats are the most valuable thing in my life because I live in Pensacola, I need a barrier island to protect me from incoming hurricanes and storms. Barrier islands help absorb the impact from that. And barrier islands are held together by the sea oats. You're Michael, you are from the Midwest. Are you familiar with a crop or plant called wheat.

Michael: Very. Anyone who's driven in the Midwest knows, probably too much about what wheat looks like.

Jackson: Yeah. that's a good way to put it. So, you probably are familiar with wheat, how it looks. Sea oats are kind of like that, they're also a grain, believe it or not. And, but they're a little more green, but the magic isn't really them themself. It's under that. Their root system holds those primary sand dunes together. If those were not there, the dune would fall apart. The barrier island would fall into the ocean, and the next time a hurricane came through Pensacola or other areas that are protected by them, they would be subject to a huge storm surge that the barrier island cannot absorb.

Michael: Fascinating. It's crazy to think that such a small plant that looks just so generic is so important to the island. And if we're talking more a little bit more about the sea oats, since they play such an important part, how should people and listeners out there interact with sea oats?

Jackson: In not very many ways. Interaction with them is, you know, you may take pictures with them. They like they look great in photographs. I know I'm in plenty of them. But because these sea oats are so important and there's not a lot of them left, we at the National Parks Service discourage heavily. Taking them, touching them, pulling them out of the ground, taking them home as souvenirs. It's a hefty federal fine to do it. So probably not worth it in that sense, and it is an offense. So, you may look and observe them. You may take pictures with them, but please don't rip them out of the ground. Michael: And even going even further, don't even, leave a footprint on them. We like to say the leave only footprints on the beach does not apply for the sea oats. It's best to preserve them and keep them together because that's the only thing keeping this island together. So, talking more about the barrier islands, you talked about these primary sand dunes. Are these the only sand dunes here on the islands?

Jackson: They are not, good catch. Behind the primary sand dunes lies little shrubs called that we call beach sheep, but they're allowed to form because those primary sand dudes knocked down, salt spray from the ocean, allowing more plants to flourish. Now beach sheep is some of the only shrubs and plants that can survive behind them. Thankfully, we are gifted secondary sand dunes, which are even bigger. They can reach over 100 feet tall if they're allowed to go, untouched by humanity and nature. And they are really the thing holding this island together as far as the habitats go. They can again hit over 100 feet tall. and they form in pretty much the same way just several years after the fact from those primary sand dunes forming. Behind those, you'll start to see habitats develop. near the secondary sand dunes, you'll see things called salt pans. This is when in, say, a high tide or maybe a flood, if there's a hurricane, salt water will go on to the barrier island. It'll sit in a certain spot and allow a habitat to form. However, there's not enough supply at this point of the water, so it'll evaporate, leave behind the salt, and the environment that it's created. It's it looks more like a desert. If you drive into at least, the Santa Rosa Island portion of Gulf Islands National Seashore on your way to visit Fort Pickens, you'll probably notice the batteries there like Battery Cooper, Langdon, and 234. Those are also all secondary sand dunes. They catch sand in much the same way that the primary ones do. And they also help protect the environment. So, nature has really conquered those, forts that humanity built. And secondary sand dunes and primary sand dunes also exist on most barrier islands, not just Santa Rosa, but ones in Mississippi as well.

Michael: There's more than just sand dunes. There's actually a difference between secondary and primary. Talking more as we get more inland, could you talk more about how these islands develop? Especially if you go on these islands, you might notice trees. There's almost a forest here. Could you talk about how we get from just a pile of sand and the progression into a wooded area?

Jackson: Yeah. So, barrier islands, you wouldn't think is conducive to having a forest environment. But if a barrier island is big enough and well protected enough by those sand dunes, eventually, the wind from the ocean dies down, there isn't as much salt spray, and you get some larger and larger plants to form. These kind of coalesce into a habitat known as the maritime forest. The trees there are very diverse. We have magnolia. We have oak trees. We have pine trees. The Gulf of Mexico and the southeast was famous for its longleaf pine trees, which were not exactly the same size, but quite similar to the Redwoods out in California. However, the lumber industry took those down. We may talk about that later. But the forests here have a very rich history, especially on those barrier islands. The closer you get to the bay, the younger the environment is, but the taller the trees get, which is kind of weird to think about because that environment mimics the mainland environment very similarly because of that protection by those primary and secondary sand dunes.

Michael: Talking about the environment there's a lot of different types of environments here on the barrier island. What does that look like? And how does that impact the wildlife? Is there different biomes? Is there different species? Could you give us a brief explanation on that? Jackson: So, there are several different habitats. I've already touched on the salt pans, the dunes, and the maritime forest. Believe it or not, there are also more environments. So, barrier islands contain marshes. I have a question for Michael if he's up for the task. Do we have on barrier islands, do we have salt water marshes or freshwater marshes? Michael: Well, since I know we're on the ocean and even the bay is salt water, I might have to say we have saltwater marshes. Jackson: So, I'm a terrible podcast guest. I asked a trick question. The answer is both. Pensacola Beach, for instance, is one of the most rainy cities in the world or in the United States. So, rain comes often. It piles up into these marsh. Well, it'll make a marsh. It piles up into spots. It'll make a marsh. Plant seeds that come from either the mainland via the wind or maybe animals that like birds that fly to and from the mainland to the island will deposit these seeds and they're conducive. They're able to give life and the seeds will spread, and it'll make a whole environment. There's tadpoles and minnows in the marsh, but beyond that, it's not really a place for you to get dinner. Herons, on the other hand, and egrets that hunt tadpoles and minnows, can find food there. So, they're able to survive in those areas and thrive in those areas. Beyond that, there's, as Michael said, saltwater marshes. Now the big distinction is the salinity, as you can imagine, but maybe more so than you would think. When there's high tide or there's flooding from a storm, fresh water marshes will actually turn into brackish or salt water marshes because the sand or the salt water from the ocean gets into the freshwater marsh. So, most of the habitats here are actually some degree of brackish water. And saltwater marshes are very similar to freshwater marshes in that, it's a marsh. It's surrounded by water. There's actually small creeks that can form on these barrier islands. Michael: Now talking more about human impact. Could you explain how tourism kind of impact these islands? Jackson: They don't, do a very good job impacting it, or they don't do it for a positive reason, I should say. And to start us of nature also impacts these barrier islands. Residents of Pensacola and the surrounding Gulf Coast areas may remember the dynamic duo of hurricane Ivan and hurricane Dennis in 2005 or 2004 and 2005. The 60 and up to hundred foot tall sand dunes located on Gulf Islands National Seashore were almost entirely blown over. Now the islands didn't lose the sand. it stayed on the island in some form or another. It's just that the sand dunes were wiped out. Ivan knocked those down. Dennis didn't really do much damage because the damage had already been done, and nature did not have enough time to heal itself. Thankfully, you can think of these barrier islands as not sentient organisms, but they do try to preserve themselves from falling into the ocean. If they run out of sand, they're going to move more inland, where there's higher concentrations of sand, and these sand dunes are also going to form over time because those winds and the longshore currents east to west are going to move sand and reform those dunes. The problem is that humanity has not been the kindest to these barrier islands in recent years, and that stopped some of these sand dune regenerations from occurring. In the 1950s, Pensacola began to become a tourism hub with these tourists brought the real estate developers with these developers brought bulldozers and condominiums. They knocked down those pesky sand dunes because who comes to Florida to climb mountains? You want to go to the beach. Why would you want to walk uphill to the beach? So, they knocked down the sand dunes and they tried their own artificial ways to curb shoreline erosion. The problem is, is that these didn't really work very well. It's really a game of domino, because though they could stop sand from going out into the ocean. As previously mentioned, these currents that bring the sand from the east end of the island to the west end of the island now had their sand deposits trapped by an artificial structure. So, the west end of the island could not get the sand needed to replenish itself. So, humanity has kind of over the past, couple decades really harmed the way that barrier islands have grown. However, we’ve kind of realized what we're doing wrong, and we're trying our best efforts to restore the barrier islands to their, former glory. We're we no longer have to replenish the beaches by taking a slurry of sand and water out from the ocean and dumping it on. We're beginning to we, as in, Florida and the federal government are beginning to plant sea oats along the beach and try and bring these islands back together. Beyond that, there's then efforts to curb littering here. Michael, would you like to go to a beach covered in plastic and glass and food? Michael: No. That sounds terrible. Jackson: No. not really. I mean, I used to live in Arkansas. Those areas aren't exactly the cleanest, and that's why I don't go there anymore. But if littering has been curbed and hopefully, we can keep littering from being curbed to preserve the beauty of this barrier island. So future generations can come and experience it the same way that you and maybe your parents, if you've been visiting for a while, were able to. Michael: Talking about littering. I know that littering really impacts the ecosystems and wildlife, but in ways that many people don't even think about it. Jackson: It impacts it in a huge way. Many of the animals here are very endangered. The Santa Rosa Beach Mouse being one in particular. There's only a couple of those left. Shorebirds, Snowy Plovers that are critically endangered. We've been trying to get those population numbers up. However, their biggest predators being crows and ravens, they feast off of litter. So, let's say if I, I'm being very bad and not conservation minded. I throw my hamburger on the ground. Well, that's going to attract crows that come in. Crows will stay on the island. Crows will eat snowy plover eggs, and they'll also get into sea turtle eggs and, you know, who doesn't want to save the sea turtles? So, if we litter, it's going to bring all these invasive species in. But if we stop littering, we're going to be able to drive them away. And the wildlife here is going to be preserved for yourself and, hopefully, future generations that come visit here. Michael: That's fascinating to hear about crows and invasive species. When I think of littering, I just think of the plastic straws and the plastic containers and birds or some kind of endangered animal, eating it. But you've kind of shown that even food littering and stuff that we think is biodegradable drastically impact the barrier island. We're, running a little low on time. So, the big question I do want to ask you at the end is, how do you hope listeners out there interact and respond to this episode on barrier islands? Jackson: So, I hope that when they come and visit these barrier islands, they appreciate not just the beach. Or the area that probably most people come in for it, but they take time out of their day to walk through to experience and time travel a little bit from the beach to those primary and secondary sand dunes and see how, life begins to spring up the further away you get from the ocean. I also hope that, you know, they're able to experience the diverse habitats and wildlife that form behind those primary and secondary sand dunes. I hope that they're able to take away an appreciation for nature in that setting. And I hope that they're able to understand how fragile these ecosystems are. and how important they are, and barrier islands are to not just the communities that live on them, to those on the other side of the bay. And I also hope that they begin to be conservationally minded. They're aware of how fragile this all is, and they understand the impacts that human and nature has on it. And most importantly, I hope them that these people, when they come to Gulf Islands National Seashore and experience, our barrier islands, they're part of and not just part of, but they can be the solution to many of the problems that these barrier islands face today. Michael: Thanks, Jackson. Yeah. The conservation and the ability to change is such a huge thing here. The island and the beach is never the same day to day. And it's always changing. It's always shifting. And so, as Jackson showed, the island's always changing. So, the question is not whether or not it will change, it's how will it change and how will us as guests and visitors to the National Parks be part of that transformation. That's all the time we have for today. Jackson, thank you so much for being part of this podcast.

Jackson: Thank you for having me on, Michael.

Michael: And to you listeners out there, thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope it was enjoyable and that you learned a little bit about barrier islands. I hope as you enjoy this, your natural seashore here, that you take some time to appreciate not just the beaches, but also all the other environments in ecology that go into the barrier islands. So, let's get up. Let's get out there and let's explore this great national seashore.

Michael: Welcome to Sounds of the Gulf, the podcast stretching 160 miles on your largest national seashore Gulf Islands National Seashore. Today we’re talking about Civil War music with Fletcher. Fletcher, thank you for coming.

Fletcher: Hi, how are you? Thank you for inviting me.

Michael: Fletcher why don’t you explain who you are and how you got to this topic?

Fletcher: Right now this summer I’m an intern at Gulf Islands National Seashore with our historic weapons program. I decided to research more into Civil War music because of my background with music, so I thought it would be an interesting topic to learn more about because I feel like it’s not explored enough.

Michael: Starting off with what most people would know from Civil War music, can you explain probably the most famous example is the drummer boy. So, could you explain how the drummer boy and other musical instruments were used for the military during the Civil War

Fletcher: Instruments during the Civil War besides personal instruments were used by the army officially; at the start of the war in 1861 every US Army Regiment had their own band, most likely a brass band, with instruments such as drums, fifes and bugles. If you don’t know what the fife is, it’s similar to a flute in a way, and a bugle is a brass instruments except it didn’t have any keys.

Michael: So what was the purpose of these bands were they just there to have fun or did they have a use on the battlefield?

Fletcher: So they were there for both reasons actually. The first reason is because bands with these instruments would be there to uplift the spirits of the soldiers in camp. They would play songs that were very popular at the time and songs that people still recognize today at least. An example of that is the Battle Hymn of the Republic; that has the line “glory, glory, hallelujah,” that song. So they would play very popular songs that we still know today and it would uplift the spirits and bring camaraderie to the camp life, but then they would also be used during drill and they would help drill infantry soldiers by playing these instruments and playing notes and melodies. That would go into the battlefield too because on the battlefield these instruments would be used to maneuver troops and give them commands on behalf of the commanding officers because during a battle you have all the thunderous sounds of war happening all around you. You have the cannons and musket firing off using real active gunpowder and on top of that the screams of agony of soldiers on the battlefield and during all that you can’t really hear your officer yelling at you telling you what to do and the officers voice is likely going to be hoarse in someway because they’ve been yelling all day so the only thing you can really hear on behalf of him as the band and the musicians like the drummer boys who are playing these instruments to tell you what to do and to give you commands.

Michael: Could you explain more what specific commands these drummers would give?

Fletcher: They could simply play some kind of theater pattern and it could draw people to a certain location if they’re trying to maneuver troops to move somewhere else follow the music basically and this would become a routine and it would make the soldiers the infantry men feel more comfortable and at ease on the battlefield because when they hear these instruments it is routine to them and they feel some sense of routine and comfortability because of the music.

Michael: So most Civil War soldiers would know this certain beats and certain measures that the drummer would play because they drilled so much and so if he came second nature almost of knowing when you heard a certain beat to respond in a certain way.

Fletcher: Exactly because in camp when they’re drilling because soldiers drilled a lot because a lot of the time they weren’t fighting; they were either drilling or doing recreational activities all the time they’d be drilling and a lot of that time they would have the band playing music at the same time and you still see that today with military installations with people playing taps and whatnot at bases you still see music used for that same reason.

Michael: As a Civil War drummer or in this music band during a battle would it be a little easier because you’re sitting behind just playing music?

Fletcher: No that is a common misconception about the musicians of the Civil War. People will assume that they were further back and they weren’t on the front lines they were just musicians right. But, a lot of the time, the musicians would be in just as much danger or an even more danger than the infantry men were on the battlefield because when they’re giving his commands they’re gonna be right up with the infantryman and then if they aren’t playing their instruments and playing music there is a good chance they will: one be carrying their own mascots and fighting on the battlefield like a normal infantry men. If they’re not doing that there’s a good chance that they’re going to be running the ambulance system and this would be during and after the battle they would be the people carrying the stretchers trying to find any of their comrades injured who they think have a good chance of survival if they can bring them back to their doctor or surgeon. So they would be grabbing the stretchers and looking for anyone injured any injured casualties that still have a chance of survival and it would be their responsibility to walk into all of this crossfire and the gunfire on the battlefield in order to try to save as many lives as possible and I would include sometimes even going into no man’s land where they are in the middle of all this crossfire not only from the enemy in front of them shooting at them but also their own comrades behind them trying to shoot the enemy. So they’re stuck in the middle of all that crossfire.

Michael: So Civil War musicians did more about filter just play music that either fight with musket or they’d be part of the ambulance or stretchers trying to save injured and wounded soldiers so it sounds like they’re in a lot of danger if not more what would be the reason someone would join these bands or become a drummer boy?

Fletcher: A lot of the musicians in the Civil War a lot of them were very young teenagers. Some of them being practically boys for their age because, during the Civil War, you could the only way to enlist as a person under the age of 18 who is if you weren’t listening as a musician so you would have people as young as the age of 12 joining to become musicians in the army bands. So that was a main reason for why a lot of people join the army as musicians and they would even on there muster roles have the rank of musician that was there a title.

Michael: Becoming a musician was a way to join the war as a younger person you didn’t have to be 18 you could be 16 or even 12 if I remember correctly the youngest ever confirmed soldier that ever served the war was a drummer boy.

Fletcher: Right of course there’s no confirmation that he was the youngest soldier in the Civil War because documentation wasn’t perfect at the time his documentation wasn’t perfect at the time. An example of a very very young person young boy serving in the war as a musician was Johnny Clem or John Clem. His nickname was the drummer boy of Chickamauga, and he was born in 1851 so he was born on the 10 years before the start of the Civil War and when the war broke out and in May 1861 when President Lincoln called for as many volunteers as possible to enlist into the United States Army he, John Clem, not even 10 years old yet, tried to join the 3rd Ohio but the officers there turned them down because they saw young he was but he didn’t give up there because then he went to the 22nd Michigan, where there was officers actually let him join; however, he was far too young but they’ve basically made him some sort of mascot and he was a drummer boy, but he was an unofficial drummer boy. And he probably wouldn’t of been on there must a roll but he was being paid $13 a month by the officers and I would expect at the officers probably took part of their salary and gave it to him to thank him for what he was doing as such a young person and he got his nationwide fame and the fame that we still know today because we’re talking about him right now is because during the battle at Chickamauga in 1863 he was still very young and he was armed with a musket so he was actually fighting as an infantry man during this battle, and he had a musket that was actually sawed down so the barrel of sawed down because of how small he was because he couldn’t carry a normal sized musket and during this battle, his unit ended up getting surrounded by Confederate forces and a colonel in the Confederacy saw Clem and said something along the lines and of course this is oral history but said something along the lines of calling him a little Yankee devil and Johnny Clem did not surrender to these Confederate forces her to this Colonel while they’re surrounded and he actually turned his gun to the colonel and shot him and after that point he was able to retreat and make it back to the US Army lines and because of his actions here and during the war he ended up being promoted to the rank of sergeant in the US Army at such a young age and he is by far the youngest soldier to ever be a noncommissioned officer in the United States Army and that gave him his famous nickname of the drummer boy of Chickamauga.

Michael: Johnny Clements is 12 year old boy fighting in the this big battle with a gun that yesterday so off the barrel because it’s too big for him and he’s fighting alongside men that might be twice as each.

Fletcher: Precisely.

Michael: So there’s a lot of bravery going into the drummer boys in them the bands during the Civil War it’s not just a way to get out of fighting is a regular infantry unit it’s almost an additional thing you have to do.

Fletcher: Right and they didn’t join because they wanted to be a musician specifically all the time a lot of them join them just because they wanted to offer service to the best they can no matter what their ages and Johnny Clem offered a lot of service because he ended up not getting wounded once but he ended up getting wounded twice throughout the war. In 1864 when he was only 13 years old and the war had been going on for about three years and he’s only 13 and he’s been injured twice and he was finally discharged from the army and provided them so much service and sacrifice even though he was so young. That was the reality for many teenagers and young people.

Michael: They utilized their talents for battlefield purposes and to serve their armies but their skills as musicians could also play a role outside of battles. Could you explain how music what role music played for soldiers outside of combat?

Fletcher: Yes! So a lot of people consider the Civil War to be the most in history and that’s not only because of all of these official army bands that took part and offered service for the army, but also all of the music going on in the camp and all of the personal music that your normal every day common infantry soldier would bring with them. Soldiers would bring pretty much any instrument you can think of that was around at the time that wasn’t stationary of course like a piano. Common soldiers would bring these instruments with them to camp if they could play them because they were not army regulars the large majority of the soldiers during the war where your normal American civilians and they volunteered and they wanted to bring whatever piece of home they could to the camp to camp life and many of them would bring the personal instruments. Those instruments could include harmonicas, guitars banjos, fiddle, violins, flutes, pretty much anything you can think of and they would bring these because it’s a piece of home and then when they got to camp they would play this music for the same reason that people play music today. Music and the playing of music is a way to express yourself and show your emotions, release your emotions, reason people would listen to music and camp even if they weren’t musical people themselves because people still listen to music today for the same reasons; it’s to release emotions during a part of their life that’s so challenging and it’s a way to mentally escape from the horror of what they’re going through. They would play all kinds of song many of them people may recognize today people do recognize today. They had different styles of this music. They would have songs that were there for comic relief; things that would take this humorless situation and these humorless circumstances that they’re all living under but they would write and play song of the way down on that offer them some kind of comic relief. They would also have songs about being hopeful an example of that that many people know is the song named “When Johnny Comes Marching Home.” This song is about a soldier returning home and everyone being joyful and having a big homecoming after the victorious end to the Civil War that they were all hoping for and they would bring hope inspire hope for these people and, aside from that, they would also have songs on the march such as the “Battle Cry of Freedom,” a song about rallying around the flag and shouting the battle cry of freedom for the US. They would have songs about sorrow and my favorite song about sorrow from the Civil War years is this song called “All Quiet Along the Potomac tonight,” and that song is about a soldier on picket guard along the Potomac and he is thinking about his family at home his children and his wife and the song ends with him falling unnoticed to an enemy bullet. So sad songs like that with the reality of water and also songs just about simply missing their family or their loved ones at home

Michael: So, much like today’s music, music back then was played to express emotion just to have a tune it showed happiness, hope, joy, but also sorrow, pain, loss. So are there any songs that people would recognize today?

Fletcher: So there are a lot of songs that Americans would recognize based on the melodies and the tune of the song and for some songs and some people you may even recognize the chorus parts of the song. Since these are folk songs a lot of people may not recognize them by the title some examples that I’ll give you so you can look this up and your free time or after the podcast if you want to listen to some of these songs. One is “John Brown’s Body,” two is “The Battle Cry of Freedom,” three is “the Girl I Left Behind Me,” and four is “When Johnny Comes Marching Home,”and the songs will have different meanings and vibes about them so give them a listen if you’re interested.

Michael: So al lot of the songs have different words but the melody isn’t the lyrics kind of been passed down we might recognize them from other songs or a different version of them.

Fletcher: Precisely, because a lot of the songs, like I stated before, get adopted overtime and some of these even adapted from older songs that were before the Civil War.

Michael: So we’re running low on time here. My last question for you is what do you hope listeners gain from this discussion on Civil War music?

Fletcher: What I hope everyone gets from this conversation and this topic I think is that the Civil War soldiers were individuals and they were people just like all of us even though they were around a long time and this all happened around 160 years before today there are still people and they still played music and listen to music the same way we do today and I research more into this topic I hope you learn more about these people because it’s important for the people of this time period to get their stories out there and the only way for their stories to get out there because of course they’re no longer around is for normal people like you and me to research for them and share their stories for all of the world.

Michael: Thank you Fletcher, that’s a great take away of knowing that these people were humans and have stories and it’s up to us to learn and research and tell them. So that’s all the time we have today. Fletcher, thank you so much for coming out to this podcast!

Fletcher: Thank you for inviting me.

Michael: Listeners, thank you so much for listening and until next time let’s go get up get out and explore this great national seashore

Michael: Welcome to the Sounds of the Gulf. The podcast stretching a hundred and sixty miles on America's longest national seashore, Gulf Islands National Seashore. Today, my guest is Maggie. Maggie has worked with both Florida Fish And Wildlife Commission and the National Park Service in efforts of conservation of two shorebirds species. Maggie, welcome, and thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.

Maggie: Thank you for having me.

Michael: Could you start by introducing yourself and what you've done here?

Maggie: Yeah. So like you said, I have been interning here for about 8 months. In that time, I got to work with the Florida Fish And Wildlife Conservation Commission, doing shorebird patrol and monitoring, and then I get to translate that data and make it more accessible here at the park service.

Michael: Could you explain what conservation is?

Maggie: Yeah. Conservation is the preservation and protection of something. So this just means basically protecting something that you see is important or care about.

Michael: So why is conservation important?

Maggie: Conservation is important in our park for a couple different reasons. The one that most people think of first is for recreational reasons. Having beautiful spaces like our beaches to relax and enjoy is important and sentimental to lots of people. Aside from leisure, it is also important to practice conservation in order to protect the resources that support us, such as food, clean air, and clean water. All of these things that we need we get from a balanced ecosystem.

Michael: So conservation is important, not just for the sake of the ecosystem, but for those who come in and enjoy the National Park and to create that balance so we don't destroy it for others. You mentioned this beach patrol. Is that one of the ways that the park does conservation?

Maggie: Yeah. So for me, conservation at Gulf Islands was through the shorebird patrols with FWC. During our patrols, we would walk up and down the beach and through the habitat and take note of everything we saw. For example, we would look for and record any scrapes, that's like nests, or chicks, adults, and even if these birds had bands or were unbanded, as well as predatory data as well, which could be tracks, crab burrows, etcetera. So normally we would start patrol really early before all the crowds came out at the beach. So that looks like sunrise, we would get out and we would drive to the end of the island. I worked more in the Perdido Key area of Gulf Islands, and then we would walk the dune habitats all the way back to the main area. And that's when we would search for adults, chicks, tracks, anything that we could find.

Michael: Your patrols were mainly just monitoring the beach, walking around, and then recording what you saw.

Maggie: Right. And then when nesting season started, of course, we would use that data. And we would put up the postings that you see on the road.

Michael: Why did you do these patrols?

Maggie: By doing these walks, we are collecting data that we could use to observe the population trends of the shorebird species. The two that I was focused on were recognized as threatened by the State of Florida, so we were trying to monitor their populations.

Michael: Now you mentioned them as threatened. What does that mean?

Maggie: Because they are recognized as threatened by the State of Florida, that just means that their populations are in decline and face threats of endangerment or even extinction.

Michael: Now how did your work with Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission interact with these beach walks?

Maggie: So with Florida Fish And Wildlife, I got to see and collect real tangible data. And then with the park service, I was able to use that data and make it more tangible through programs that can be used to educate the public on the ecosystem that we currently have.

Michael: So your time at Florida Fish And Wildlife was mainly used to kind of collect the data and do more of the science that most people probably don't understand or care about, and then with the National Parks, you're trying to make people understand the importance of them, get people excited, and also to contribute to the conservation.

Maggie: Right.

Michael: So why was the science data, especially with Florida fish and wildlife so important?

Maggie: By entering this data, we could see not only the numbers of species of these birds, but we could also track where they're going and their migration patterns and how the nesting and numbers have shifted in previous years. If these species were to go extinct, it would have a domino effect on the rest of the ecosystem, leading to other species going extinct as well. So even though it doesn't seem like these birds directly affect us, their population is kind of a reader to how the ecosystem as a whole is doing. So because their population is declining, that means it's off balance. That means that the whole ecosystem is off balance. So by taking these numbers, we can kinda monitor and look overall at the whole system.

Michael: So you're not just looking for a day to day, but really year to year to see where the trends are coming if efforts of conservation are working or not, and to plan out better and more sustainable solutions.

Maggie: Right.

Michael: Now were you just monitoring the two bird species?

Maggie: Primarily, like I said, we did have statewide surveys that we would do as well where you would keep track of the number of people, you would note every bird that you saw. In addition to predators such as crabs, larger birds, tracks of big mammals such as coyotes, foxes, that sort of thing.

Michael: So it's not just the birds you were monitoring. It was also their predators to see if the dangers are coming closer, if they're disappearing. and how that would affect the population. What two bird species did you focus on?

Maggie: I focus primarily on the snowy plovers and the least terns. Least terns are colony birds, so there's quite a few of them out there. They might be mistaken as a small seagull, They have, like, a white body and a black cap and a yellow beak. The snowy plovers, however, have a more stout, chunky, chick-like look about them. They're small little fuzzy guys.

Michael: The least terns are colony birds, which basically means they fly around in large groups. Is that correct?

Maggie: Yeah. So they nest in big groups.

Michael: So the snowy plover and the least tern are what we call shorebirds. What does it mean to be a shore bird?

Maggie: So shore birds are basically birds that just stay on the beaches. They don't really venture out to the water, they nest and live on the shore.

Michael: Now with these nests, how would you identify them?

Maggie: So the nest for shorebirds, we call scrapes. They are small little divots in the ground. They're normally like a round hole. They're really hard to see, and they're super shallow. So that's why it's important to follow the postings.

Michael: What are these postings that you mentioned about the nest?

Maggie: So when you're driving in, you might see them on the side of the road. They're tall lanky posts that are connected with rope, and they basically just designate an area for nesting zones, which prohibits you from walking through them. Because the nests are small and into the ground, they can be really hard to see. So even though you don't see them doesn't mean that they're not there. So that's why we have the nesting zones as well as to a lot of space for the birds to actually have to nest.

Michael: So it's not just stepping on the nest, but also making sure that the birds can feel safe while they're actually nesting and they're not spooked by people running around. It's to preserve and conserve the area for the whole nesting zone.

Maggie: Right.

Michael: Now when I drove in today, not only did I notice the nesting signs, I also noticed the speed limit sign. And it's very slow. Is there any reasons for the speed limit to be so low?

Maggie: Yeah. So oftentimes these birds will go from habitat to habitat in order to search for food or other reasons. So from going to bay side to gulf side, they have to cross the road. And like we said, they're really small adults can only be a couple inches tall. So if you're not looking for them and you're going super fast, you probably won't be able to stop in time.

Michael: The speed limit is designed to protect birds, so it's important not only to follow the speed limit, but to be aware to not accidentally hit a bird. Now why are these two birds threatened? What's happening to cause their populations to decline?

Maggie: So they do face lots of natural predators as it is. This could be ghost crabs, other large birds, coyotes, foxes, raccoons. With all these predators, it's not easy to survive, especially as a chick, but it's really hard when their habitat gets limited. Human development like condos and parking lots limits the space utilized by wildlife.

Michael: So it's not just the natural predators but human expansion is causing a concern for these bird species?

Maggie: Yes. 100%.

Michael: How are humans impacting these birds?

Maggie: So just by developing, which means building condos, parking lots, that sort of thing, we are limiting the space that they have to exist. But we're also limiting the space that they have away from their predators. So by forcing all of the wildlife into a smaller area, you're forcing the predators closer to the nests as well.

Michael: Human expansion not only decreases the space for birds, but for the whole ecosystem. And so the compressing of wildlife into smaller and smaller zones makes it so it's more likely for predators to catch these bird species and to have a population decline.

Maggie: Right.

Michael: Are there other ways that humans have increased or encouraged predators?

Maggie: Another way is by bringing your pets onto the beaches. So dogs, for example, even though a lot of the time you think that they won't cause that much harm…it’s more than just them chasing or being the predators to the birds. Oftentimes them marking their territory and being there can leave a scent that will attract larger mammals towards these nests.

Michael: Dogs and littering on beaches creates a scent and attracts other predators who after the litter is gone and the dogs are gone, leave other birds like the snowy plover and the least tern to be threatened and be eaten by these carnivores. Are there any other species that warrant conservation at the park?

Maggie: Yeah. There's a couple different ones. So the sea turtles, that is a huge thing here. People can volunteer with the sea turtle patrol every summer. We also protect the sea oats and our dunes, as well as the Perdido Key beach mice and tons of other organisms as well.

Michael: It's not just about birds that preserve them because birdwatchers like them. The whole environment and ecosystem warrants protection. There are multiple different species that face endangerment, which if they go extinct, others will. And so the domino effect affect not just birds, but of sea turtles and sea oats and beach mice. So what ways can guests at the National Seashore contribute to conservation efforts?

Maggie: So a great way to practice conservation efforts is by practicing the principles of “Leave no Trace.” This is basically just a way to make sure you leave an area as you found it. And by doing so, you are helping preserve all aspects of this park.

Michael: So the ways we've mentioned, leave no footprints, make sure to follow the speed limit, don't go into posted nesting zones, and to keep animals away from beaches that they are not supposed to be on. So volunteering with Florida Fish And Wildlife is more of the on the beach kinda hands on monitoring and the data aspect while more at the National Park Service is talking about education, informing the public, and getting people excited about how they can also contribute.

Maggie: Right.

Michael: Now, say I volunteer for Florida efficient wildlife, I wanna do the speech patrol, What training do I need? What does that look like?

Maggie: So if you contact Florida Fish and Wildlife or your local agencies, They will get you signed up with all the databases that you need in order to participate in surveys.

Michael: Now if I contribute to the surveys, Is that more the walk on the beach? Is there anything special with that?

Maggie: Yeah. So with the surveys, it is statewide so people can participate and enter their data from throughout the state. All you have to do is go to their website and review the policies and enroll, and then you can enter your data.

Michael: So it's kind of how much effort I put in is how much they'll take. And so with the National Park Service, how does that look different than volunteering with Florida Fish and Wildlife? How does education actually play into it?

Maggie: A large part of getting the public to participate in conservation efforts is by educating them if they're not aware of the resources that we have, they're not likely to care about them or even participate in these efforts. So I got to do 3 different programs with the data that I collected, the first of these was educating people on how to identify their nest. So we would basically have a recreation of a dune habitat, and you would have to stick a pin into where you think that the scrape is, just because scrapes are hard to identify. This kind of was educating the public on what they look like and also how it's important to follow the postings. The second one we did was a create your own, where guests would have to build their own scrape and then place it somewhere that they chose on the island. And then we would take an overlay and demonstrate how the development limits where they can build their nest. The third one involved guests trying to blow a small cotton ball across the table through a paper straw, while they had toy cars crossing it. This was just demonstrating, of course, how the speed limit is set for a reason. And if you're going too fast, it's impossible for these birds to make it across.

Michael: All three of these programs are to teach people what we've already discussed on this podcast. The scrape identifier was to show the importance of the barriers and the nesting zones The scrape builder was to show how development has impacted these birds in a negative way, and the activity where you blew a cotton ball across a road with cars demonstrates the importance of the speed limit. All three of these activities translates this data and kind of these concepts into small, tangible actions. And so people might be able to understand the importance of the speed limit, but they truly know it after doing these types of activities.

Maggie: Right. And we got to take these to schools and on field trips, and education is the most important. And by doing hands-on activities, people are more likely to remember it and apply it later in life.

Michael: So you're position with the National Parks and Florida Fish And Wildlife was really to merge the two concepts of wanting to teach people and educate people about conservation, but also having the data and science at the back end on the other side is to make sure that the data science wasn't just housed in some type of database, and no one really knows or cares about it.

Maggie: Right. So by branching the two, we kind of got the opportunity to not only make the data more visual and more tangible, but also to have it more accessible to more people.

Michael: Now are there other ways that listeners can contribute to conservation efforts in their own communities?

Maggie: Yeah. There are many different ways. So if listeners have the time, I would encourage them to get involved by volunteering either with the FWC or the Park Service. Florida Fish And Wildlife, they do a lot of the data and analysis. But if you give it the park service, there's an opportunity for that as well as educating the public. But if you don't have the time, simple practices such as recycling and other sustainability efforts can make a huge impact. Many species face large threats from climate change. For example, lots of nesting zones are directly threatened by rising sea levels. Any changes we can make to mitigate the effects of climate change can help out the entire ecosystem. From the sea oats to the turtles, the beach mice, all of it.

Michael: So it's not just avoiding conservation efforts to ensure that we don't destroy, but it's also something that people can participate in. If there are local or in areas with National Parks volunteering on turtle walks or beach patrols, but also even at their home in places like I am from, the Midwest, even if not fertilizing their yard, and polluting because all the chemicals and pollutants go down the Mississippi watershed into the bay. And so everything's connected in the environment in much the same way that we're all connected by the waterways. So there are ways that people can contribute to conservation efforts even in their own backyards. What do you hope listeners get from this discussion on conservation?

Maggie: I hope that listeners leave with an understanding of how these plants and animals of our islands have massive impacts on our lives. They create and maintain the places we go to relax and have fun, but they also provide us clean air, water, and food that we need to survive. I also hope they feel inspired to get involved. Even if that means taking efforts back at home, it doesn't have to be only when you come to the beach. Conservation isn't just following rules and regulations. It is a practice that we extend into all areas of our lives to support the environment that supports us.

Michael: That's a great way to end it.

Maggie, thank you so much for coming on to this podcast.

Maggie: Thanks for having me.

Michael: And listeners, thank you so much for listening. And until next time, let's get up, get out there, and explore this great National Seashore.

Pearse: Hello, and welcome to the Sounds of the Gulf Podcast. The Podcast all about Gulf Islands National Seashore, our largest National Seashore. From Barrier Islands and wildlife ecology to American Coastal Defense, cultural history, and recreation, we cover all aspects of Gulf Islands National Seashore. From National Parks to local communities, the National Park Service safeguards the portals to our past by establishing connections to ourselves and one another, through the preservation of our natural, cultural, and historic treasures for all to enjoy. On today’s episode, we have my guest, Lead Interpretive Park Ranger Casimer Rosiecki, here to tell us about the Third System Forts within Gulf Islands National Seashore, the famed Guardians of the Gulf Coast! How’s it going Cas? Thank you for being here!

Casimer: Hello! Thank you for having me!

Pearse: So, before we start. Briefly give us your Park Story, and how you came to the Gulf Islands.

Casimer: Yeah! So, my story begins about thirteen years ago. I am from Indiana, and on a whim I applied to and was given an offer to intern for the National Park Service at Harpers Ferry National Historical Park in West Virginia. Just a few days in, working with fellow rangers, seeing what it is they do, the mission they have, the responsibilities that they have. That, then and there, I knew what it is I would want to go on and do with my life. Which was very fortunate, because I was nearing the end of my college career. I hadn’t quite figured out what I was going to do after college, but the stars aligned for me in that internship. It put me on a trajectory that brings me here to you today. Came down to Gulf Islands in October of 2016, and have been here ever since.

Pearse: A little background for our listeners who may not be familiar. What are the Third System Forts, and how many are there in all?

Casimer: Third System Forts are these very unique, very iconic structures that dot the United States shoreline. Ultimately the United States Army Corps of Engineers designed and oversaw the building of Forty-Two (42) Third System Forts. Those Third System Forts range from Maine to south Florida, south Florida to Louisiana, and then there are also two (2) out in California. These forts were designed and built in the early to mid-1800’s. They are forts built of construction materials like granite or brick. They were built at a time of relative peace, here in the United States, which afforded Army Engineers the luxury of time. Time to be very selective over sites to fortify, to secure the construction materials, the labor forces, the contractors, everything! To oversee the building of these defenses that would protect not just these tangible things, like cities and people, but also the ideals that this National had been founded upon. So, these Third System Forts would come to play a pretty critical role, ensuring the safety of a nation, but also ensuring opportunities to fulfill its founding purpose.

Pearse: Wow, that’s amazing. So, this is really a long term, long game goal, over the period of many decades to have these all built along the coastline.

Casimer: Indeed! And it was just one component of a much larger initiative to protect the United States. Today, most listeners, most people here today are going to take for granted the fact that in our nation’s youth it was a weak and vulnerable country. So much so that during the war of 1812, British forces entered American waterways. The British military put soldiers on American soil, who ultimately went on to threaten important commercial centers like Baltimore, and Maryland, New Orleans, and Louisiana. And they even destroyed much of the Nation’s Capital. With the end of that war of 1812 in 1815, the United States Government took pretty quick and deliberate actions to make sure nothing like that ever happened again. The Federal Government envisioned a future in which better means were in existence to move troops, and supplies, and information. Those means of movement would come in the form of roads, for a short time maybe canals while they were in their heyday, but then eventually they would be replaced with railroads. This grand plan to protect the Nation, also include providing for a National Army that could better support the different state militias. Then also ensuring there is a Navy that could fulfill its purpose here domestically, but also abroad. So those are just three of those components all collectively a part of this National Defense plan, if you will. But the pillar to that plan, was of course, the Third System of Coastal Fortifications.

Pearse: Wow, that’s incredibly insightful. You think about it, the British had burned the White House, so congress took that pretty personally, and started building these forts! How many of the forty-two (42) Third System Forts are in Gulf Islands National Seashore, and why are they located where they are? There has to be a strategy to their location.

Casimer: Yeah! One Third System Fort is located in the National Seashore’s Mississippi district. That fort is called Fort Massachusetts, it sits on an island named Ship Island, which is about thirteen or so miles off the coast of Mississippi. In the Florida District of Gulf Islands we have, still standing today, three Third System Forts. Those include Fort Pickens, Fort Barrancas, and Advanced Redoubt. There was once a fourth Third System Fort here, named Fort McRee. It once stood on what we today call Perdido Key. That fort though, no longer exists. In fact, of those forty-two Third System Forts that were built in the 1800s, only forty-one still exist today. The one that is missing of course, is our Fort McRee.

Pearse: So, what happened to Fort McRee?

Casimer: There was, during the American Civil War, a bombardment in which, at the time, the fort was occupied by Confederate soldiers. During this intense, two-day bombardment, U.S. Sailors aboard two different Warships, and then U.S. soldiers over at Fort Pickens bombarded that fort. Fort McRee sustained so much damage that once the Civil War ended, the U.S. Army had really no more use for that brick fort. Instead, they would build new concrete defenses called Coastal Batteries around that brick fort. For McRee would continue to collapse. Time and storms and just overall neglect by the federal government would lead that fort to just crumble in on itself. So that’s why today, the brick Fort McRee no longer stands.

Pearse: So, we have the only fort of the forty-two that no longer exist. You had said that Fort Massachusetts is on Ship Island. Some of these forts are pretty remote, how was that construction even possible?

Casimer: The same for the fort here on Santa Rosa Island, Fort Pickens. ships and barges! The Army Corps of Engineers, their contractors, they were able to ship everything to those construction sites with different types of vessels. Which is an incredible story on its own! The logistics that went into planning, the different types of ships that could transport these massive quantities of bricks, of stone, of metal, of lumber. That is just a feat unto itself.

Pearse: Wow that really is a feat unto itself. You have to imagine, and this is all done by hand at the time.

Casimer: That’s correct!

Pearse: And they’re bringing it over on barges, and they’re transporting, and they might have some mules or some oxen, but this is all being done by hand. All the bricks, cut, laid, individually by hand. What craftsmanship. So, and I’m sure our listeners want to know a little more, we had already brushed up on it a little bit. Tell us more about some of the action that these forts have seen.

Casimer: One of the great ironies tucked into the history of the Third System of Coastal Fortifications is that they were never used to protect the nation against perceived foreign threats! These forts were built here to guard the nation against countries like Spain, like France and Great Britain. But the only time any of them ever saw combat, the only time they were ever used in battles, was during our own internal struggle, one of the most transformative in our Nation’s history, the American Civil War.

Pearse: Wow. Our greatest National epic. We built these forts, and they were used against each other, how about that. You got any more stories of the local ones?

Casimer: Yeah! I think one of the most incredible events that took place here on Santa Rosa Island and in front of Fort Pickens, is an event that did not involve a clash of arms of military might. It involved a different type of weapon, simply resistance. It was on March 12th, 1861. This is notable, its exactly one month before the first shots of the civil war were fired in April of 1861 at a place called for Sumpter in Charleston, South Carolina. This is also, March 12th, is eight days after a man named Abraham Lincoln was officially sworn in as the sixteenth president of the United States. So here, a nation is crumbling, and a new man has been elected to the Whitehouse. Soon, a month later, the first shots of the Civil War would be fired. Here, in this gap, four individuals suddenly appeared in front of the U.S Soldiers and Sailors inside Fort Pickens. These four individuals as it turned out, were enslaved human beings. Rumors would circulate that they came to Fort Pickens from as far away as Milton, Florida. Which is, as the time, a small village on the Florida mainland, just east of Pensacola itself. And so, this would be a journey for these people, today who we call freedom seekers, a journey of over forty miles through woods, through swamps, and of course over open water. You have to cross open water to get to this island and to Fort Pickens. So here on March 12th stand these four freedom seekers. They tell us Commanding U.S Army Officer that they came to the fort for two things. Number one: Protection. Number two: For Freedom. This army officer, he’s presented with a situation. One that he isn’t really, maybe ready to address, and one that he may not see himself, sort of qualified to act on. The best thing that he knows to do, is that as a government representative, by law he has to return those four freedom seekers to their white enslavers. And so that is what he will do. That army officers personally took those four freedom seekers back to Pensacola and handed them over to the city Marshall, and what became of them, what happened to them, remains a mystery. We may never know, but we will, and do know, that by Florida state law, that they could have been susceptible and punished severely, for trying to steal from their enslavers, steal themselves from their enslavers. When that army officer, though, left Pensacola and came back to the fort, there waiting for him were four more freedom seekers. He would return them as well. But once the civil war began, more freedom seekers would come to Fort Pickens, transforming this fort built by enslaved people, into a beacon of freedom. And today, because of stories like this, Fort Pickens is known as a destination on the underground railroad.

Pearse: Wow, that is incredible! Moving forward a little bit, surely coastal defense didn’t end in 1865, there are other installations out here, right? Why don’t you tell us a little about those?

Casimer: Right! Anybody listening to this podcast today will know that everyday technology around us is changing. Soon we are going to replace our existing phones with new phones. We will get new cars, we will get new televisions, we will get new tablets, and gaming systems. Why? Because something is going to come out that we perceive to be better, faster, smarter maybe. Technology is always advancing, and that means old things are gonna get replaced! And that’s ultimately what happened to places like Fort Pickens. Fort Pickens became obsolete, became an artifact of a bygone era, and in its place the Army Corps of Engineers conceived these concrete coastal batteries. In time, some fifteen concrete coastal batteries were designed and constructed both on Santa Rosa Island and Perdido Key. And their mission was in many ways like the mission of Fort Pickens, protect Pensacola Bay, because of its natural depth, it was a highly sought after, strategic body of water. But also, the Pensacola Navy Yard here, which would close in the early 1900’s, and reopened its doors a few years later as the Navy Air Station Pensacola. Which most people will know, is the home of the famous Blue Angels.

Pearse: So, what we have here is an entire timeline of coastal defense, stretching from the early 1800’s, all to today. Incredible. So, lets get a little more personal again. You’ve been here a few years; do you have a favorite fort?

Casimer: I usually really enjoy the fort that I’m in at the time. I will say though! One of the hidden gems I think here at Gulf Islands is Advanced Redoubt. Advanced Redoubt is often overlooked, because on Pensacola Bay it was the last fort that was built, under the Third system program. It was completed after the American Civil War. Which means it didn’t really see a direct combat role, like Fort Pickens, Fort McRee, or Fort Barrancas during 1861, when there were a few bombardments on the bay. It’s also often overlooked because it’s not really overlooking the water. In fact, of the Third System Forts that exist, there’s only one that doesn’t overlook ocean or the Gulf, and that’s Advanced redoubt. And the reason I really enjoy Advanced Redoubt, is because during the American Civil War, white officers transformed it into a school. Prior to the civil war, it was illegal in the southern slaveholding states to teach an enslaved person how to read or write. Reading and writing are tools to better one’s life. They are these superhero powers if you will, that allow for people to think critically and play an active role in society. And so, these were skill sets that were deprived of enslaved men, women, and children. And so, during the civil war, a majority of black soldiers who volunteered to serve in the U.S. Army were men from the southern slaveholding states. And because most of them couldn’t read or write, white army officers found that they couldn’t necessary, and in a timely manner, finish all of the paperwork that comes with operating an army on a day-to-day basis. So here on Pensacola Bay, at Advanced Redoubt, a school was established at Advanced Redoubt to teach these black soldiers how to read and write, so that they help in the daily operations of their different units. But these skill sets were also preparing these black soldiers for a much greater role. With the end of hostilities, and the restoration of the Union, and the destruction of slavery, they would go on and take on a more important title. That of the citizen. And knowing how to read and write and become more educated would give them the ability to become these effective members of society. Where they could be a part of the nation’s future.

Pearse: That kind of brings me to one of my next questions. These structures have survived through our Nation’s infancy, and they have played more roles than just coastal defense. They have played as schools, they have played as prisons in come cases, it is more than what they were just built for. These structures surviving so long—they are here today. Tell us about the role of our Third System Forts today.

Casimer: Much like Advanced Redoubt, I would say they give us spaces much as schools do. They are these classrooms for us here today, and people in the future, to enter, and to enter these forts and use them as a vehicle to travel back in time, where we can expose ourselves to our Nation’s past. We can expose ourselves to stories of hope, danger, tragedy, and justice. By exploring places like Third System Forts of those here on Pensacola Bay, or one Ship Island. I think we don’t necessarily just learn about the past, but we learn about ourselves, and we learn about the present world that we live in.

Pearse: With such a long legacy, what should the takeaway be?

Casimer: Ultimately, I hope when people do come to this park, or into these forts, that they go away caring about these places. The lessons that you might walk away with will vary from one person to the next—and that’s okay! There is no just one thing that we can learn, no one lesson that we can learn, and walk away with. These places are here for all of us, on our individual journeys to learn about. There's many different lessons, though one of the takeaways is that our nation is imperfect. We are a nation that was found of these spectacular ideals, but they are ideals that generation after generation faltered in trying to uphold and fulfill for everyone here in the United States. But in these forts, we can see our nation moving towards things like freedom, equality, and justice. Ultimately, I think, these are places of hope, and they can provide us with a light, to travel though times of despair, times of confusion, and they can help lead the way for us as a collective society. But for much of that to happen, people need to get out and come to a place like Gulf Islands. Enter and explore these forts. Rangers know quite a bit about the forts. Interns, and volunteers who work here, were all here to be these caretakers of these stories. But these stories are not ours alone to care for, to preserve though sharing and memory. It’s the responsibility of everyone to learn these stories, learn about these places, so that those memories can survive and be passed onto future generations.

Pearse: Well said. Unfortunately, that’s all we have time for today. So, for our listeners who want to learn more about the Gulf Islands and the Third System Forts, Fort Massachusetts, Fort Pickens, Advanced Redoubt, or Barrancas can follow Gulf Islands National Seashore on social media, using #gulfislandsnationalseashore. Or visit in person and attend one of the many Ranger Programs. Ranger Rosiecki, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and time with us today, and thank you listeners for listening to this episode of Sounds of the Gulf. Now get up, out there, and find your park.

Lily Sebastian: Hello and welcome to The Sounds of the Gulf, the podcast all about the cultural and natural resources of the largest national seashore: Gulf Islands National Seashore. From barrier islands to coastal defense to recreation, we cover all aspects of your national seashore. When you think of archaeology, grand images of escaping jungle temples or finding exotic golden artifacts may pop into your mind. This is the popularized image of archaeology made available through media like Hollywood movies and odd news articles. While archaeology does have its grand moments in foreign landscapes, rarely do they come in the form of dodging poisoned darts. Furthermore, revelations and discoveries are being made in places that Americans call home, like in our own backyards. Today we would like to spotlight one such awesome chain of discoveries and the actual archaeology behind it, the Emanuel Point shipwrecks found in Pensacola Bay. With us we have dr. John Bratten, an expert in underwater archaeology and co-project, head of the Emanuel Point wrecks alongside Dr. Gregory Cook. Great to have you on, Dr. Bratten.

Dr. John Bratten: Thanks.Thanks for having me.

Lily: Anytime. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself before we just jump right in?

Bratten: Sure. So I teach here at the University of West Florida. I'm a professor in the anthropology department, and I think I'll be starting my 27th year this fall. So I've been doing this quite some time. It's actually my second career. I used to be a high school science teacher in Nebraska, of all places, far from the water. But one day I was asked to cover a study hall for a teacher that was sick that day. And I went in and the librarian, when she had new books, she'd put them out where the students could see them. And I saw this new book, and it was called The Sea Remembers by a gentleman named Peter Throckmorton. And it was this great book about underwater archaeology and shipwrecks and what can they tell us about the past and people. And I thought, this is really interesting. So I looked in the book and checked it out, took it home and realized that there were two places in the United States you could study maritime archaeology. One of those was Texas A&M University. I actually applied, and so it worked out really well eventually. Then I was able to combine my previous background, which was science, with archaeology. They needed someone to work on the first Emanuel Point shipwreck that was found here way back in 1992. But I actually came in 1994 to act as a conservator for that shipwreck project, to take care of all the artifacts and also act as a diving archaeologist on the project.

Lily: So you have a pretty rich history with the shipwrecks and everything then.

Bratten: Oh, I do. And so it's been a good career and been my research focus for all these years.

Lily: Awesome. You know a lot. Can you tell us maybe the brief sort of rundown of how those ships ended up in Pensacola Bay?

Bratten: Sure. So we have to go back to 1559. And by this point, of course, the Spanish had been exploring the New World and sending out exploration ships. And then eventually they sent ships into Mexico and then they discovered all the riches of the New World, including gold and silver, lots of other valuable things as well, that they could send back to Spain on their treasure ships. For that reason, they wanted to kind of keep their protective hold on this part of the world. And so they kind of had a fear that someone else might come to this part of the world, Florida, kind of the area we call Pensacola today, and maybe would establish a base that they might be able to attack their treasure ships. That could have been the French in particular or the English. And so Spanish had already visited. They knew the bay, Pensacola Bay, and know this is a great sheltered place. There's lots of natural resources here, timber and fish and things like that. So they put together this colonization effort under the command of Don Tristan De Luna Italiano. And he had been a conquistador with Coronado and so he was familiar with this part of the world and all that. And eventually they assembled 12 ships, 1500 colonists, and they prepared to come in to start a colony here in Pensacola and then send some of the ships on the Atlantic side and start a second colony on the Atlantic side. Eventually they would connect those two colonies by road that they would build. This was very ambitious at the time. So the ships actually took them eight weeks to sail here. They had 200 horses on board. The horses had a horrible time on the ships. And so they actually sailed past Pensacola. They missed the entrance and they went over by what we call St. Marks, Florida today. Then they sailed back to Mobile Bay. Then they offloaded the horses there to bring the surviving horses overland. But then the ships entered Pensacola Bay. They anchored the ships. One was sent back to Mexico and saying: “Hey, we made it. We did good.” And they had two other ships that were ready to actually sail back to Spain when this was five weeks after they'd landed. And then a hurricane happened. And from the description of the hurricane, we know that it hit Havana, then traveled up through the Gulf, much like hurricanes strike today. It sounds like it was a category five storm. Luna describes the winds came from all directions for a period of 24 hours. As a result, seven of those ships were lost.

Lily: You mentioned sort of a description that Tristan DeLuna gave. How do we know exactly what happened? Did he have journals with him that we can read? Or is there physical evidence that can also support this?

Bratten: I work in what's known as historical archaeology. So we rely on the documents because the documents tell one part of the story. They don't always tell the whole story. And the documents are usually written by the winner sometimes. And so we get that version. But no, there's letters. There's letters that were sent back to Mexico, letters that eventually reached Spain. And these are kept in the archives in Seville, Spain. And there's other records in Mexico as well. So, one of my colleagues here at UWF, his specialty is paleography, he can read 16th century Spanish like we read English today. Well, it's not that quite that easy, but he's very good at it. We have lots of documents. Some of them are things like supply lists and payrolls, letters reporting the storm and which ships were lost, letters that document the relief ships that came here to the colonists. We have a good record. And then we add to that with what we find underwater, the archaeology, and we get a much more complete story by looking at both.

Lily: So what is that like, going underwater and doing archaeology?

Bratten: Well, it's fun. I think one thing that surprises a lot of people is when I tell them what I do and they have a different idea of it than what it actually is. These ships are very shallow, and so the first one was found in 1992. I came to work on that ship in 1994 and to act as a conservator for the project. One of the people that would be responsible for taking the artifacts, waterlogged artifacts, to a different environment and stabilize them so we could study. But then I worked alongside everybody else underwater. So it's only in 12 feet of water, and the visibility in Pensacola Bay is not crystal clear blue water. It's actually pretty murky. And in the summer, sometimes we can only see five or six inches in front of our faces. Sometimes on a great day, we'll get 2 feet of visibility. We're going: “Yeah, that's really good!” In the winter it's better. And sometimes we work through the winter and we could see 5 feet, maybe. It's shallow, so we just use scuba tanks and we can stay down for a very long time. When we work with students, we try to limit them to an hour and then they come up and they do work, “topside work” we call it, and then they can go back down. Hopefully we'll get two dives in a day, but it's a lot of fun. I get excited when students find things because they're so excited. It's a broken piece of pottery, but it's their first find and it's from the 16th century. It's real exciting to watch the students find these things. I was super excited, too, when I found things.

Lily: What’s the favorite thing that you've ever found?

Bratten: I've been asked that a lot. I like things that tell us about the people on board. So we found several things that I really like. One of them is I found some obsidian cutting blades, very specific blade shape that was made by Aztecs. And we were able to trace the actual source of the obsidian to two specific places in Mexico, but we knew that when the Spanish came, they'd actually brought some Aztec warriors with them. And so to find something that we could actually tie to the Aztecs was really neat. One of our students found an ivory manicure set. It's almost like a Swiss Army knife of today. It had this nice little handle that was decorated with cuts and grooves in it so you could hold it nice. And it had four little blades, one of which is missing, but we know what the blade would have been. But the other ones, one's like a toothpick, and one would have been a little spoon, which had actually been used to remove earwax from your ear and different things. And so it's kind of a prestige item, something that an officer [would have]. People say: “was it Luna's?” It was a very significant find for that. But one of the neat things is we make discoveries inside the laboratory quarry as well as underwater. And so when we were cleaning it, one of the students noticed at the end of it, there was a couple of holes. We got to looking at it, and we realized it's a whistle, so there's still a little reed in it and then the opening that you would blow through. And so it makes a kind of a high pitched whistle, which you can still whistle it today because it's ivory and so it's dense. We could do that safely. And then we carefully removed the water and cleaned it up.

Lily: So what's the cleaning process like on artifacts and everything? How long does it take?

Bratten: It takes a long time. It depends on the type of artifacts. So if we find something made from wood, you know, we're not bringing up the ship timbers. We bring up smaller artifacts made from wood, like pulleys and different things that would have been used to help raise and lower the sails or move the cannon carriages and things. Waterlogged wood, It still looks like wood still has its shape, but a lot of the cellular structure on the inside over the years, after 450 years, it’s just gone. But what we're left with is the cell wall, which gives it strength and support, but it's filled with water, and if you let that water just evaporate, the cell walls will collapse. And so what we have to do is kind of gradually remove the salt water, replace it with fresh water, and then we replace the fresh water with a wax-like substance called polyethylene glycol (PEG). Or even better is if it's a small enough object, we can put it in a freeze dryer and safely remove the water. So that can take months to a couple of years. We found an anchor on the first Emanuel Point shipwreck. And again, it's important to remove the salt that's from the salt water in there, because salt is sodium chloride, but the chlorides are really bad for iron. So we have to use a process called electrolysis and gradually remove the salts and gradually clean it. That may take two years for an object the size of an anchor. And then we find small things like olive pits, cow bones, pig bones, sheep bones, chicken bones, things like that. Again, it's a process of safely drying them and sometimes giving them consolidant, a chemical, some sort of resin to give them strength. We have lots of people that help us with this. But one of the things we identified, which I'm really excited about, was a cat. So on the second Emanuel Point shipwreck, we know we had a cat on board. I actually have sent that off for analysis to look at the DNA, isolate the DNA from that cat. Well, we know it came from Europe, but as far as I know, it's the earliest cat in North America, which is pretty neat.

Lily: Really?

Bratten: Yep.

Lily: Wow. Does the cat have a name?

Bratten: It doesn't have a name yet. We need to give it a Spanish name. But one of the things I'm trying to find out, and as I'm working with several other people in England, actually, is why was the cat on board? So obviously there were rats on board and there were mice on board. We know that for sure. So was it a ratter or was it a pet? And so we've been doing a thing called stable isotope analysis. And so with that it will give us an idea of the diet. Right now, we're trying to figure that out. Okay, if it was eating rats, well, it's a ratter, but if it was fed other things, like fish, perhaps it was a pet. That's a fun little project that I'm still working on.

Lily: There seems to be a lot to these ships here. When was the last one found?

Bratten: We found the first one in ‘92. We found the second one in 2006. We found the third one in 2016. And we're using students that are taking the archaeological field school, the maritime class. And we do survey looking for these. And we use magnetometers and side scan sonars, these instruments that we tow behind the boat. And then we find what we call an anomaly or a target. And then we send students and faculty down to dive on these to see what we have found. And we find lots of things that aren't shipwrecks. But the last one was found 2016, the same year that actually the land site was found. The colony site for Tristan de Luna's colonization effort as well.

Lily: Do you think that there could be other shipwrecks down there, or is this, like, it?

Bratten: We know that there's others. We know that seven of them were lost in the hurricane that's documented, and one of them was actually blown up on land. The hurricane surge was so powerful, so that one was probably salvaged by the colonists because they could put that wood to use, and particularly the iron that was inside it to help build shelters on shore. So that leaves six in the water. And we say shipwrecks, they didn't actually sink so much as the ships were driven up on a sandbar, at least the three that we found so far. And they pounded and they broke open and so they were grounded. There should be three more out there. That's good too, because we keep training students how to do the search and looking for them. You know, we might find—These are called Emanuel I, II, and III, because by tradition, if we don't know the name of the ship, we name it after the closest point of land, which in this case is Emanuel Point. And all three are in the same general location, so we think it's the anchorage. There's three more that the hurricane might have pushed them some distance away, but we don't know yet. But we'll keep looking.

Lily: How long does it take a student to learn how to dive properly?

Bratten: They go through a class and so it's a regular class. Sometimes some of the dive companies—this isn't really my specialty—but they offer the class online and then they do the practical in the water part here locally with one of the local dive shops. But it's something in a couple of months they do. And so at that point, they are given what's known as their open water license. And it says you can dive at X amount of feet. It's kind of the first stage. Eventually you can get advanced and rescue and master diver and instructor. There's lots of different certifications, but open water is the one that you start with. We have students that just completed an open water certification, but yet we're going to take, as part of our field school, we're going to give them what we call a week of scientific diver training. They may have never carried anything with them underwater, except maybe a camera, possibly. We take a whole bunch of stuff down and fire hoses to help run the dredge pumps to do the actual work, and clipboards and mesh bags that have our tools and rulers and artifact collection bags in it. And so we practice with them. We take them to the university swimming pool first and see how comfortable they are and make sure they can work their scuba equipment well. And then we start gradually introducing them to working with this equipment at the same time. And then we have graduate students. They're much more advanced and they've already been through the field school. And so we pair the graduate students with the undergraduate students. And so it keeps everybody safe. And we also have a dive safety officer and so we have a very good safety record.

Lily: Safety is the number one concern.

Bratten: It is.

Lily: Sounds like it. You had mentioned dredging in that last little section. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Bratten: Yeah, so that's how we do the actual excavation. We set up a grid on the site. We actually make the grid out of aluminum frames and so it's positioned very properly in a north and south direction, east and west. And so we tend to start with a two meter square excavation unit that we know the orientation and its position on the bottom relative to the shipwreck. We may not know where the bow of the ship is or the stern of the ship, but we set that up. On top of all this is the overburden and it's sand and shell. And so we have to remove that before we get down to the actual ship itself and some of the artifacts. We use what's called a water induction dredge. So it's kind of like an underwater vacuum cleaner. A pump pushes water down with a lot of pressure and it goes through a pipe and it's kind of what they call the venturi effect. Anyways, as it's shot through the pipe, it creates a suction at the other end. And so we're basically backing up the sand and shells and things like that, but so that we don't miss any artifacts. It's then exhausted through a mesh bag. We'll look at that for artifacts that we might have missed that were too small to see. So we don't miss anything. Once we get down really close to where shipwreck timbers and artifacts are found, then we'll sometimes do hand excavation. We just use our hand and do hand fanning or our trowel, just like they would on a land site, and be very precise when we get to the things we really want to document and photograph.

Lily: That sounds kind of exhausting (laughs).

Bratten: Well, it's patience. And so that's why archaeologists are different from treasure hunters. And so we go slow and meticulous, and we go by levels, and we document where everything was found because that's called provenience and how things relate to where they are. It tells us what parts of the ships may have been used. This is a galley area, or this was the quarters for the officers. This was where cannonballs and things like that for the munitions might have been positioned on the ship. All that's important to tell the whole story. So it takes time.

Lily: What does your average day look like on the field?

Bratten: Well, an average day, let's say we have good normal weather for Pensacola. So we meet in the morning at, we call it MSC: Marine Services Center. Which is actually in Ellyson Field near close to the university. And we have all of our boats there. So all the students show up about 7:30 in the morning. And then we load all equipment that we need for the day. Scuba tanks, and everybody has their own bag of personal dive gear. And then those dredge pumps that I'd mentioned, the dredge hoses, gasoline to run the dredge pumps, drinking water for the day, safety equipment, first aid kits, and it's a lot of gear. And so we have checklists to make sure we don't forget anything. Then all the boats are started to make sure they're going to run before we even get there and get everything squared away. And then we pull those behind vans. And then we drive down to a boat launch, and we launch, and then we get up out on site, and we give a dive briefing for the day, safety briefing, so that's important and make sure everybody feels okay to dive. And then teams are assigned a specific unit to work in. And then hopefully by 9:00-9:30 in the morning, we'll have our first teams enter the water, and then they'll start working. Students up on top, they're going to be watching the water for those divers. They're going to watch their bubbles. They're going to know their location. They're going to make sure that they're where they need to be and safe. We're making sure boats aren't going to drive up and say: “Hey, what's going on?” So, I mean, we're friendly, but we'll talk to them from a distance and explain to them. And then when those students come up from their dive, we're going to be there to help them get back on our excavation platform with all their equipment. The next team will be ready to go. They're going to go in. And so somewhere in the afternoon, we'll go through four rotations of that. Artifacts may have been found or not found. And if they are, they're cataloged. And then we'll gradually start packing stuff up to take it back to shore. If we have lightning in the area, we may have to leave earlier. Sometimes we get these afternoon storms which chase us off. But on a good day, we'll be out there till after 2:00 maybe. Then we have to take everything back to shore, put the boats on trailers, take it back to marine services. Everything that went out on the water that was exposed to saltwater is rinsed and freshwater. Everything put back where it belongs for the next day. And then you get to go in the nice air conditioning and work on your field notes, copy what you may have written underwater on plastic sheets we call mylar and make sure all those notes are recorded properly. Then you get to go home and relax and we start all over again the next day.

Lily: So it seems to be very physically taxing as well as mentally.

Bratten: Well, sure, it can be, and it's teamwork, the effort of that. And so we have lots of people that already know their jobs, and so in most cases it works really well and by everyone giving a hand and not taking off to get all that equipment washed and everything, it works pretty well. It's fun. And sometimes we work in the summer when it's really hot, and that's taxing. The water is nice and cool, though, but sometimes we work into the fall and even the winter sometimes. Then you're more worried about the cold.

Lily: Overall, would you say you're very happy with your students and where you are right now in your career?

Bratten: Oh, yeah, I'm very happy. I feel real fortunate that I've been able to do this for so long. It's nice too. There's different parts of it. You can do the active field work in the summer, but then you do the research during the year. And I like to involve students in helping me. They'll present papers related to it at conferences. I love conferences, I love travel. Last year we had our big archaeology conference last January in Lisbon, in Portugal. Sometimes we get some nice trips to that, and present the results of our research to colleagues from other countries as well. And that's how I've made some of these connections, that I work with people both in Spain and England as well on these projects. I'm happy with the students that really liked this work and then they've now found their own careers in maritime archaeology or went on to complete PhD in maritime archaeology as well and become professionals in the field. So, yeah, very pleased.

Lily: Would you say it's rewarding?

Bratten: Oh, sure, it's rewarding. I mean, I just get excited. I mentioned the cat. You know, I'm still working on the cat paper, but we found on the first shipwreck piece of armor, armored breastplate. And I was working—and I went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art working with some of their armor specialists so we could nail down the manufacturing date, as well as the type of manufacturer for that. And I find all those things rewarding, working with the artifacts and what they can tell us. And some students gravitate towards the remote sensing, the search for the shipwrecks using the magnetometers and side scan sonars and things, and really gravitate towards that part of the work. So, yeah, it's all rewarding.

Lily: Very rewarding. Lots of options.

Bratten: Yes.

Lily: So, last question here. What would you say to people that would like to look more into the Emanuel Point wrecks, like the history and what you guys are finding out there?

Bratten: We have a web page. There's, at uwf.edu Shipwreck, you can find information about the Emanuel Point ships there. We published a book, Florida's Lost Galleon, about Emanuel. Point I, which is really good. So it's things like this, we give public talks where we'll have images of all the things that we show and you want to look out for that. And so we try to disseminate the information as widely as possible in different ways so people know about the project. Because most Americans are surprised when they find out that the Spanish were here starting Colonnades before the English were. We think it started with Jamestown, but that's not really true.

Lily: Thank you very much, Dr. Bratten, for talking to us today. It often feels like there's a big gap between the public and archaeology as a field. So I really am glad that you were able to come on and share with us some of your findings and what is in some of our own backyards that we don’t know about.

Bratten: Happy to do so. Thanks very much.

Lily: Thank you.

Michael: Welcome to Sounds of the Gulf, the podcast stretching 160 miles on America's largest national seashore: Gulf Islands National Seashore. Today we are talking about interpretation and what that means in the parks. My guest is Daniel Lead historic weapons intern here at Gulf Islands National Seashore. Welcome, Daniel.

Daniel: Hi, Michael. Thank you for having me today.

Michael: Daniel, could you start by explaining who you are and what you do here?

Daniel: Yeah. So my name is Daniel Engelgau. I have a bachelor's in history and a master's in public history. What I do here at the park is I, as you said, Michael, I'm the lead historic weapons intern. I oversee six different interns, as well as do interpretive programs, firing historic weapons, as well as outreach and education.

Michael: Thanks for that intro, Daniel. Starting off, most people think of interpretation probably as two languages and translating. But here at the Park Service, it has a very different meaning. So could you explain this different interpretation meaning?

Daniel: Yeah. For the National Park Service, the interpretation, depending on who's doing it, can mean talking to just the general public about many of the different resources that your park provides. So you could be talking about the natural elements of the park as well as the historic elements. Maybe even, for us here at Gulf Islands, it's interpreting the Fort, Fort Pickens, or interpreting the muskets or the cannons. It's maybe taking certain items and talking about those items with the general public.

Michael: The national parks, when they're referring to interpretation, isn't talking about transcendent language barrier between two languages, but instead translating almost a mental barrier between someone and an object or a cultural or natural resource.

Daniel: Yeah, exactly. Now, don't get me wrong. There are parks out there that do the language interpretation. Think maybe the Everglades down in South Florida, the parks along the borders with Central America. So there are parks that do the language side of it. But for the general theme of interpretation, for the park, it's presenting a meaning to an object or a resource, getting people to care about why? Why should I care, say, for us, this pile of bricks? You could even go further into that. And why, if I'm from Iowa and I'm coming right down here to sunny Gulf Islands, why should I care about the beach? Why should I care about these tall grass like plants, which we know as sea oats? Why should I care about sea oats? It's our job as park staff, whether it's interns, permanent staff, seasonals, volunteers, anyone who really works for the National Park Service. In the interpretation side, our job is to educate people in a sense of fun and interactive, but not like a classroom. With that to the Iowa comment, if you love to come vacation down here in Florida, you love our beautiful beaches, which many people do, stepping on that sea oat, that plant, actually harms our beaches, littering harms our beaches, removing wildlife or introducing a species down here could decimate this entire ecosystem. So interpretation, yeah, is preserving our resources, which is part of it, but at the same time, we're trying to teach, educate and use these resources as a knowledge point.

Michael: So interpretation is really utilizing these resources to the best of our abilities to not only preserve but also to educate and excite people where it's not just “don't do things,” but they understand fully why not to, or to gain a better appreciation for what they're looking at, where they're coming and visiting, and understand how it relates to them on a personal level.

Daniel: Yeah, that's absolutely correct. You hit the nail on the head right there, Michael. Why? Why should someone care? I mean, down here at Gulf Islands, we have this beautiful beach, but we have Fort Pickens. Why should I care about the fort when I could just spend my day sunning out on the beach? If you're not a historian or maybe an architect or someone who just loves coastal forts, where's your connection to this resource? Why? Well, for Fort Pickens, there's many reasons why. Fort Pickens was a coastal defender. Fort Pickens was a destination hope on the Underground Railroad. Fort Pickens is a symbol of the horrible times of American history with enslaved labor. So that fort that's on this beautiful beach has a lot of meanings for why. But in the end, that why is because it's part of our American story, and it's our job to tell that why in a way that everyone can enjoy as well as learn about it.

Michael: While valuable, it seems pretty difficult to try to convince people to care about a pile of bricks compared to the beach. How do you create this interpretation to get people excited about these resources?

Daniel: That's the really difficult part, Michael. For me personally, love the beach. I'm a Floridian, been here my whole life. I'm also a history nerd, so I can care about the pile of bricks. But maybe if you're not so much as a history nerd. So the trick to the interpretation side of things is we have to create engaging activities, whether it's maybe making your own forts out of Play-Doh, maybe it's a Fort Tour, maybe it's using whatever resources we have to engage the public, because Fort Pickens has a lot of competition. And that's the challenge for most national park staff. In the interpretation side, you work at some of the most beautiful places in the world, and you have to take someone's eyes away from those beautiful places to ask the question, why should these beautiful places be preserved? Yes, they're beautiful, but I think right here in Gulf Islands, people would, maybe some people would rather it be more roads and parking lots instead of our beautiful beach. So it's that preserving. It's finding how we can engage with people, which is really fun and really challenging.

Michael: When you're creating these interpretive programs, how do you do that? Is there any guidelines?

Daniel: Everyone learns very different. For me, I can kind of read and research and I pick it up real easy. I know everyone has very different ways that they do that. For the nitty gritty, behind the scenes aspect, a lot of people will create outlines. These outlines are what works for you. We have these overarching themes, we have learning objectives, kind of similar in a way to a classroom if you're familiar with lesson planning. But you have these themes, these objectives, these goals you want people to take away from your programs. For me, if I put an outline together, I have my goals, I have my themes, I make sure I'm hitting all my interpretation principles. It's seeing if I can use an object that's hands on where people can touch, where people can connect. Some people will use photos and really bring, like for us, officers back to life through these photos. And they'll use those as interpretive tools. For me, I'm not the biggest fan of that. I like to use the material itself. Let's touch the brick. What does this brick symbolize? And there's a lot you can do with it. It's like anything. There's no right or wrong answer to interpretation. In the end, is someone walking away having learned something and did they enjoy it? For me, my favorite thing it’s when people will come up after a program and say “Hey, I really enjoyed that.” Shake my hand or say “Hey, I never thought about it that way.” That's success to me. And how I get that way to success is very different from, say, you, Michael, how you would get there.

Michael: Planning and creating these interpretive programs take a lot of work behind the scenes, but also is very individual. For you, Daniel, it's almost more of a lesson plan from teaching, where for someone else it might be more of a interactive demonstration.

Daniel: Yeah, to go off that lesson plan for teaching, again we have to remember we're not lecturers. That's a big sticking point I tell everyone is if someone wanted to be lectured, they'd be in a classroom right now. If you're on vacation, who wants to get lectured? Who wants to sit down and be talked down to or talked at about a subject? We've all gone K-12. Some people have gone on to college, some have gone on to grad school. But at some point, everyone is done with school and you don't really want to fall back into sitting in a classroom. So, yeah, the lesson plans, and for me, that's just because that's my background in education, I create those goals and objectives. But it's not to lecture at people. We're working together, we're having a dialogue, and we're going into the new Park Service model of Ace with how we engage with our audience.

Michael: So it's about going above just talking and doing all the research, but to create an engaging and do more than just talk down the people. Now, you mentioned ACE, which stands for audience centered experience. Could you explain what that is?

Daniel: The National Park Service, they're going towards a different direction. For some parks they're getting away from the traditional stand up and talk, maybe the stand up and traditional fort tour. Instead, it's this really wonderful experience you're having with your audience. You're interacting one on one. You're asking questions, you're trying to create dialogue between everyone instead of just standing up there and talking. Because when you're creating dialogue, you're getting people to interact, you're getting them to think. Sometimes it's hard, you just maybe see some blank stares and you really want them to be engaged. And that's really difficult to do, especially if you don't have a lot of physical items to share and pass around. It is difficult, depending on your group, where you're grasping, you're doing whatever you can to get that audience to engage with you. So it's just trying to make more of a hands on experience as well as the conversations that flow naturally between everyone. Now, there are more experts out there on the ACE system than I am. So if you are interested, I definitely recommend looking into it. But it's just a new, different style. I think with everything, it goes back. Everything needs to evolve. We need to have progress. What worked 30 years ago, 50 years ago, even 10 years ago, does not work today. We are living in the fastest times in human history with technology, social media and the Park Service, like museums and other industries, they need to meet up with these fast-flowing media outlets as well as changing attention spans among our audience.

Michael: ACE is really just another method to get this interpretation. It's not the only one. It may work better for other people. That's part of the exciting part about interpretation, especially with the national parks, is that one program is not identical to another. And so everyone can put their own spin on it and utilize their own methods. And especially when it's changing, there's this exciting opportunity to match what's changing in the times with the culture and with the differences in our guests, to make them more enriching, to make them feel like they truly are guests and learning, and being part of the national park.

Daniel: Yeah, absolutely. And what works for one doesn't work for others. What you do, interpretation wise, for one group will not work. As we're getting more into, say, interpretation for children, if you want to go back to the founder, the national park model of interpretation would be Freeman Tilden. His work on Interpreting Our Heritage, still something used by the Park Service today, and that was from the 1950s, and that's very rare for resources to still be used today, something that was in the mid 1900s. But one lesson that Tilden always spoke on, that really stuck with me is interpreting for children is different than interpreting for adults or interpreting for a general audience. And that is, personally, I think, for a lot of people, a struggle. Because you want to interpret for adults. Well, some of those big words may not translate well to kids. Well, in order to do that, you may talk down to children, which you don't do that. That belittles them. Kids are a lot more intelligent than people give them credit for. You want to make stuff completely different that you would make for a general adult centered audience. Maybe if you're going to a school or you're doing field trips, these are places of education that's a really cool part about the Park Service, is these are learning opportunities in the field. And if you can't adjust that to kids, how are you going to get that next generation to care about these resources?

Michael: Now, expanding on this idea of making interpretive programs specifically for children here at Gulf Islands National Seashore, what does that look like? What are our interactive interpretive programs for children?

Daniel: So for me personally, as a parent and as a former educator, I am a firm believer in hands-on activities. Most studies show kids learn the best through hands-on play. Not even just kids, adults. Everyone still has that inner child in them. And everyone loves to play, whether it's with Legos, Play-Doh, maybe Clay. Whatever resources you have that can create a wonderful experience. For me, if I can create a really fun, engaging thing for kids, adults are going to love it as well. I've been to the classrooms following state curriculum. So we're still hitting those curriculum standards that the state has, but we're doing it in a different way that is fun and engaging. Maybe a way that teachers aren't able to, in a sense, because they have to follow the strict schedule to make sure they're keeping up with testing as well as keeping all their students on track. So this is a really cool opportunity for the park service, is to get into classrooms, get into operating Junior Ranger days, operating Junior Ranger camps. And the point of this, the education, the working with the kids, the interpretation with the kids, is you're creating something where they're learning about a resource, but they're going to care a lot more because you're providing a wonderful experience. You are not their teacher. You are not going to go up there and lecture them, in a sense, which not all teachers do, but you're really getting in. You're something new. You're something exciting. You're doing hands-on activities. For me, I created two programs. I created a construct-your-own fort program involving Play-Doh. We would use perimeter standards, where you'd have to measure everything out, all following the state curriculum, but they got to play. So they would build up their forts, and then they would use their forts, put them together on their desks, and I would have their teacher try to come get, say, a reward, Junior Ranger badges, or anything else that the students really wanted. And we brought packing peanuts, and they would flick the packing peanuts at the teacher, symbolizing what our coastal defenses did. So not only did they learn about the forts and how they work, they got to have fun doing it. My other project for them was an environmental project. They created their own barrier islands. I put them all into controlled groups. I knew the outcome, of course. There was going to be a development group, there was a national seashore group, there was a free for all group, there was a real estate group, where they would design their own barrier islands in the sand. They would be given a set budget of what they could purchase. They could purchase sea oats, houses, hotels, roads, jetties, walls, things that are used today. Most of the groups, what happens is they bought all these things, especially the development group, and I would come in with a blow dryer as a hurricane Daniel, and I would blow it all down. Their barrier island would disappear, which teaches the importance of coastal erosion, and the importance of the Barrier Islands to our lives here, especially here in Pensacola. Santa Rosa Island, our Barrier Islands, they protect the city of Pensacola from storm surges, from flooding, as well as coastal erosion. And the kids got to really experience that. They got to learn how to design their own Barrier Islands. They got to be environmental engineers. They got to work with a budget and they got to really have fun and kind of learn about the important work that these Barrier Islands do, as well as the same. Because the Barrier Islands are the natural protectors. Fort Pickens is a human-made protector of Pensacola. So they got to see really two sides of the cool resources we offer out here at Gulf Islands.

Michael: To expand more broadly the lessons, the goals for the outreach event with the interpretation is really the goal for interpretation throughout the national park. It's not just to keep it in a classroom or have a lecture inside a visitor center or somewhere in the park, but to really take the lessons and apply them to life. And so the children and hopefully guests who come in are able to have these fun experiences and really take away a meaningful lesson when they leave.

Daniel: Yeah. And that's the hope. And for me, one of the coolest things I got, because I got to bring all the students out to the park, is they had never been here before. I think it's great that parks can now reach out to a lot of communities who may not have these relationships with parks. I think that starts with kids, elementary, middle and high school. One student came up to me and said, “Mr. Daniel, if you're still alive when I'm an adult,” and I was like, “Oh, where am I going? I'm not that old,” “I would love to work out here at Fort Pickens.” For me, if I can hit every single school, if I can work with all these kids, all these different groups, these outreach groups, and I can inspire one to two of them each group, I think our future is secured with stewards, protecting our natural resources, our cultural resources, our American history. Because in the end, that's the really cool thing about the National Park Service is we are the stewards, we are the protectors of our history and our beautiful natural resources.

Michael: Interpretation is really about creating that emotional connection or that passion in someone's life, especially with these outreach events, but it can be applied more broadly to everyone. I think of an example of we have these Junior Ranger programs at almost every national park that are specifically designed for children. But even as an adult, they're still interactive, and you can learn a lot from them. Even children's activities can be fun for adults. And more broadly, our interactive programs are for everyone. The interpretation and the planning that goes into it is all about enriching that guest experience. That people come to the national park and when they leave, they don't just have a pretty picture of the beach, but really go away with some lesson or something they've really learned that they care about.

Daniel: Absolutely. In the end, why does everyone go to, say, big theme parks? Because it's an experience. Now, the Park Service may not have the budget as some of these larger theme parks, these magical moments, but we can provide our own magical moments. And not only can we provide these magical moments, but we can teach while doing so. It should be our jobs as keepers of these resources, these magical places, to not only keep them safe and preserved, but to inspire the next generation. Not even the next generation, but all people. We only have one planet. We only have one United States. It's our jobs as citizens, international visitors, everyone. It's our jobs to make sure we care and protect for these places and have fun while doing it. Think for so long in history how many people did not get the experience to do recreation, get to learn about our resources. This is a unique place in history that we all live in, and this is a unique opportunity that we all provide. So I definitely recommend, if you're going out to visit these beautiful places, find a ranger program. They will really help you understand why this place is important, help you learn about this place. And you'll probably have a lot of fun doing it. And you'll probably learn a lot, and you might not even realize you're learning, but you're having fun doing it. So go out. There's over 400 different national park sites around this wonderful country. There's going to be one close to you or on your travels. Go to that park, see what's going on, look at the programs, and learn and have fun while doing it.

Michael: These ranger-led programs and interpretation, instead of being kind of counter opposite to conservation or preservation efforts, actually enhance them. And so it's not an either or where we either teach people or we conserve resources, but it's really a win-win where we can teach people to care about the resources, to conserve them, and really inspire them to not only go out and be excited and learn more, but to preserve and protect these resources that we use.

Daniel: Yeah, absolutely. Everyone should care about the national parks. Everyone should care not only about national parks, but state parks, forest service, all of it. This is our land, our shared collective land, as well as our land that has a lot of difficult histories as well. So it's important to acknowledge these. It's important to engage. It's important to just learn. Learn about that place you're being. Why is it important? Who was it important to, and why is it important to them? And maybe make it important to you.

Michael: Now, the last question I did have is, what do you hope listeners take from this discussion on interpretation, and how do you hope they apply it?

Daniel: For me personally, until I got into the Park Service, I didn't really know too much about interpretation. There's some misconceptions, I thought, with what park rangers were, or rangers in general. I thought they were either like law enforcement or just keepers of these places. They're not. I think the National Park Service is a wonderful place that offers so many cool opportunities, and interpretation is fun. Take advantage of that fun. Each park has a different style of interpretation and what they interp. Here at Gulf Islands, you can come out here on the weekend, in the summer, and you can watch a cannon fire. That's interpretation. That's fun. You can go to any major military park in the country. You can go out to, say, the Grand Canyon, and you can hear the interpretation of the indigenous peoples that once called these areas home or still do. You can learn about the formation of the Grand Canyon while watching these beautiful colors with the sun bouncing off of it. There's so much to do. Interpretation is such a unique tool to really make people connect with these resources. And I think that's what's important, is connecting. And if you have a connection to something, you care about that thing. I challenge everyone to go out into their parks, into these areas, and find that connection, find a place that matters to you.

Michael: That's a great way to end it. I personally also did not know what interpretation was before I joined the National Park Service, but I had experienced it before at other national park sites. As a kid growing up, I had those interpretive programs. I just didn't know them by name. And that really sparked my passion for working with public history and having the ability to work with interpretation. And so I think that's a great message to end, of encouraging people to explore the national park sites and find interpretive programs that matter to them. Daniel, thank you so much for coming on this podcast.

Daniel: Thank you for having me, Michael. It was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it and I look forward to seeing everyone out at Gulf Islands National Seashore.

Michael: And listeners, thank you so much for listening. And until next time, let's get up, get out there and explore this great national seashore.