Southern War

[Violin Music]

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian, from Ninety Six National Historic Site.

William: Together we will explore some of the well-known, and not so well-known, stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to dive in!

[Musket shot]

William: So today we're joined by Walt Young from Fort Sumter and Fort Moultrie National Historical Park. Thanks so much for joining us, Walt.

Walter: Absolutely and I'm very happy to be here to talk about the Battle of Sullivan's Island.

William: This is exciting. For those who are unfamiliar, this is one of those first big patriot victories in the American Revolution in the South, where you see the British Navy involved; really excited to dive into this. But before we get into our story about the Battle of Sullivans Island and Fort Sullivan, let's talk about you, Walt. So, tell us a little bit more about yourself and your experience there at Fort Sumter in Fort Moultrie.

Walter: Yes indeed. So, I have been a Park Ranger for parts of seven years in total with the National Park Service and I'm on year two with Fort Sumter and Fort Moultrie. So in addition to talking about the beginning of the Civil War, we have a lot of Revolutionary War history here in Charleston, particularly on Sullivan's Island. And I'm excited to talk about that. And I've learned more about it over the last two years and have been happy to learn about the kind of kind of the challenges facing ordinary Charlestonians, as well as what this famous battle would have would have entailed.

William: And that's something I was kind of curious about because when most people hear about places like Fort Sumter and Fort Moultrie National Historical Park, they're going to kind of be more familiar maybe with the Fort Sumter aspect with the American Civil War of the 1860s. Do you find it challenging to kind of make visitors realize and understand the layers of history that you have there at the forts?

Walter: To some extent, yes. Uh, definitely people know what they're coming for more with Fort Sumter, as you, as you guess. But when I, when people walk into Fort Moultrie every day, I have like kind of three or four big points that I try and run through with them, including the Revolutionary War battle and in addition to the Civil War history. But it's definitely, it's definitely a challenge to kind of narrow down how much you're talking about as opposed to wanting to get everything at the same time, which is tempting for me as a Ranger, but is maybe learning about stuff in bite size pieces is how most of the public learns.

Willaim: Giving drinks from a straw instead of a fire hose, right?

Walter: Yes. And yes, the fire hose can be tempting, and I think my park does a good job at making me slow down and make, and having people understand it in a more understandable way.

William: Very cool. So to kind of start us off, we've been mentioning Charleston a little bit. So that is the location of this fort, of this action, but specifically looking at Fort Sullivan, can you tell us a little bit more about where is that located? Not only now, but how would this area this location have been known in 1776?

Walter: All right, so Fort Moultrie is near the western end of Sullivans Island, so if you're visualizing Charleston, even in an audio format without a map in front of you, picture the peninsula of Charleston and then picture an island southeast of that at the entrance to Charleston Harbor. This is Sullivans island. It had been named after a local basically gadfly named Florence O'Sullivan many years before the revolution. Fort Moultrie is going to be at a point near the western end of this island where it can control the entrance into Charleston Harbor, and that's very important for today's story that it is not in the city, but it's at the entrance point to protect the city. Today you can come to this site as well. You just won't be seeing the original Fort Sullivan. You'll be seeing a Fort basically on an overlapping footprint that was built in 1809. So, it's the same about place 3 miles plus away from Charleston on Sullivans Island.

William: So we talked a little bit about how this can control the entrance to the harbor. Is that the only reason that this is being built here? Kind of what is the event, what is the reason leading up to the construction and then defense of the Fort in the summer of 1776?

Walter: Well, in the year and a half before this, uh Charleston has begun to be a center of revolutionary activity. So, at the time it is the capital of South Carolina, which so it's a governmental seat of power that both the colonists and the British are going to want to hold. And in the years before the Revolution, like many other places, it had protests over the Stamp Act and Tea act. It had a little Charleston tea party. Seriously, although, I think they took their tea home instead of throwing it in the harbor. Um, but instead of uh, after Lexington and conquered, and what we consider the start of the American Revolution, there are gonna be kind of mini revolutions happening all up and down the American coastline in different areas. And South Carolina is gonna be one of those areas. I mean, you have a one of your parks up near Ninety Six National Historic Site. You've got you've got a battle there in late ‘75 and there's a real question over whether South Carolina could become a potentially independent state. Here in Charleston we have a Provincial Congress that is the governing body of the colony, and it will adopt its own constitution in March of 1776. So that is before the nationwide Declaration of Independence, South Carolina has made a move that would indicate that it could be an independent, maybe a country, maybe a new state, we don't really know yet. But that is going to be vital to whether or not there's going to be a revolution here or not. And the British are trying to make sure that there's not. So, their goal in sending a large fleet down this way in early 1776 is to establish bases in Charleston and elsewhere and recruit some Southern Loyalists to fight alongside them. So, they think we can take back Charleston, we can hit the heart of the revolutionary fervor here in South Carolina, and then we can take advantage of the of the Loyalist population elsewhere in order to have a successful campaign here down South. One of the people along with them on this voyage is gonna be the former royal governor of the state, uh William Campbell, who is going to say uh, be quoted in a letter that “Every rebellious measure which has been adopted in this part of the continent originated in Charlestown… it is the Fountainhead from whence all the violence flows.” So, if we can take Charleston, say the British, then we can lock down the most rebellious area in the South and then we can start taking places where people agree with us from there.

William: That's a great quote from the governor. I love that.

Walter: Mm-hmm

William: So the fleet is sailing South. What do we know about the history of the Fort? Like had there previously been any fortifications attempted out there on Sullivans Island to control the harbor or is this the first time that there's being something built?

Walter: There had not really been fortifications before there on Sullivan's Island, and one thing I neglected to mention in the section about what Sullivan's Island is, is that the main governmental function it had been used for before this is unfortunately quarantine houses for largely victims of the transatlantic slave trade. Umm, so up until late 1775, you've got people in huge numbers being brought into South Carolina on against their will on the transatlantic slave trade and think of Ellis Island in New York as a kind of quarantine site for immigrants who want to come here. This is an importation site for immigrants who might not want to come through here and might be carrying a lot of nasty diseases. So, there was nothing, there was only those buildings here uh, until late 1775. And they actually get destroyed in late 1775. So, they're, uh, the first kind of colonial activity here is going to be the like, a group of enslaved workers trying to basically get to that island and seems weird that they would be running toward a quarantine site. But they're hoping that the British the British ships can pick them up in late ‘75, and the colonists will want to one prevent the British from making a landing here in late ‘75 and two for any of them get those enslaved workers back. So, they are going to do prevent that from happening and then establish a foothold on that island. After that has happened, the colonists will now have Sullivan's Island rather than the British, and they can start using it as a site for uh, a site for building a fort. And like I mentioned earlier, it's a strategically important site on the way into the harbor. So, the colonists are gonna want to start building a fort there, and they're gonna do so beginning in January of 1776. They're authorized by the local legislature. They're under the command of a man named William Moultrie. So, you'll hear this sometimes referred to as Fort Moultrie. He didn't name it after himself at that time, but he is the first commander of the Fort and they will start working in 177-, January 1776, with work from both colonists, militia men and enslaved workers.

Willaim: Thank you for sharing all that, the role that this island had and the layers of history there. So super glad you included that.

Walter: Yeah, the, I mean, it's a very sad story, but it's, I mean, for millions of people, we estimate that hundreds of thousands came in on the slave trade to Charleston specifically. So yeah, if we don't talk about that we're leaving out a huge portion of what makes this island important.

William: So you've introduced already are one of the big players here with Colonel William Moultrie and the location and the reason of building the fortification. Can you tell us some other kind of key players who are gonna be involved in this story and what is going to be built? What are they going to construct with Fort Sullivan?

Walter: Yep. So, a couple, couple of the other key players on the Patriots side besides William Moultrie are gonna include a man named William Thomson, but he's also known for his nickname of Danger Thomson. So, he want that guy on your side in the battle. He's gonna be largely commanding Patriot forces on the opposite end of Sullivan's Island, and we'll get to that, why that's important in a few minutes. Another Patriot who's going to be interesting, interesting part of the story is a man named Charles Lee, who is from, uh, coming down from the Continental Army. And he's basically gonna be the advisor from the Continental Army to the defense of the city. We're gonna talk about he's a controversial character, so we'll talk about his opinions on the fort in a few minutes. On the British side, we've got Henry Clinton, who as many listeners will know as one of the foremost British generals of the revolution and commanding the naval forces is going to be a man named Admiral Peter Parker, not Spiderman. And I can prove it because he has one of those aristocratic British wigs. He does not look like Spiderman. Umm, but he is going to be commanding the British fleet to try and get into this harbor. So colonists and enslaved workers will begin building in January, and they're gonna have a couple of building materials that are going to be crucial to the success of this fort. The main structure is going to be Palmetto logs. So the Palmetto trees that are commonly found on coastal islands here in South Carolina are gonna be the wood for this fort. You've also got a natural adhesive in vast quantities on the beach in sand. Umm, so it's Palmetto log and sand fort to hold it together and it'll be under construction, it's partially finished five months in by the time the British are about to show up and attack. It's not worth noting that Charles Lee, the Continental advisor to the to the Patriots here, is gonna think that this fort is horrible. He's gonna look around, and he's gonna say that this is a slaughter pen in the making, and he's gonna recommend that the Patriots abandon this strategic location and just move back to downtown Charleston and focus on defending the bottom of the city. Whether his, whether or not his plan would have been the more successful uh, I think will be evidenced as we move on through the program. But there are some people in very high places with serious doubts about whether this fort is gonna be able to successfully defend.

William: And that brings us right up to the moment of action here. What is going to happen? When will this unfinished slaughter pen be tested? Why was the fort’s defense so successful?

Walter: So a couple reasons. The British are gonna show up at the beginning of the month of June 1776, and they are going to end up putting their plans into action in the later part of the month, primarily on the day June 28th, 1776. So I always ask my visitors and I can ask you, since we're here, um, who has home field advantage in this conflict? Is it gonna be the British or the colonists?

William: The British! It is going to be a coastal naval action and Britannia rules the waves.

Walter: That is an interesting perspective, but I would go for the colonists because they know the specific inlets around here, whereas the British have primarily good naval power just in general. So, the British are gonna have to plan for knowing the specific terrain entering this harbor, and they're gonna make a couple of plans for attacking this fort. Plan #1A is to get ships in through the main part of the harbor to go from the main shipping channel of Charleston Harbor, which is just south of Sullivans Island, past the unfinished fort, take it out, and then get into the city of Charleston and conquer that. So that's plan 1A. I would say Plan 1B is gonna be actually a land attack, so they are gonna land forces over on what we call Long Island. Nowadays we call it Isle of Palms for tourists and Airbnb purposes. But Long Island is gonna be an island up from Sullivans. And if we if the Brits can hit the Fort with artillery from the sea and then make a land attack and land on the northern end of the island and get, hit the unfinished fort from the back, then they can squeeze it and they can win the battle that way they think. Out of those two ideas, many of them do you think work?

William: Well, I mean when you're looking at our history and we kind of know that we win the battle trying to trying to forget about that, I think both of these have a lot of merits. Like you said, with your home court advantage, of course, the British maybe don't know all the inlets, so maybe that's gonna throw a problem into the naval assault. But you know you have the British Navy landing troops elsewhere during the war, successfully landing troops. So I'm trying to forget that I know the history of it.

Walter: Oh-huh.

William: Let's go with the the land assault is going to be successful.

Walter: Yeah, there's a, and there's a decent case to be made that they had, they had reason to believe that it could be successful going in, but the answer ultimately is surprisingly gonna be zero. So, the British are gonna make some strategic error and intelligence errors. One of them is that they think that Breach Inlet, which connects these two islands or separates them rather, is shallow and easier to cross, and that does not end up being the case. They are going to run into a 7-foot deep inlet, even at low tide, which is gonna be very difficult to cross and they're gonna have to try a boat landing. They are gonna be turned back by that colonial force under William Danger Thomson at that end of the island. So that plan is not going to play a major part in the fighting at Fort, Fort Sullivan itself. And there, that force has basically taken out of the battle. Problem #2 they're gonna come across is that they think that this channel is going to be fairly deep and wide, about 20 feet deep at is deepest, which is correct, but they run into the problem that is not nearly as wide as they think, and so not of their nine warships they're trying to sail in the harbor, three of them will run aground on the future site of Fort Sumter, which has not been built yet but is then just a sandbar. So they are going to run aground and be basically taken out of the battle. The remaining six will not make a move to move toward Charleston very quickly. Instead, they are focusing all their fire basically sitting in front of Fort Sullivan and firing on it for the better part of the day of June 28th. They have, the British have, about 262 cannons on their ships and the colonists inside the Fort have 31, which is more than a 9 to 1 ratio. Umm. And yet, by the end of the battle, another another thing that will prove pretty important is the building materials of these vessels versus the building materials of the Fort. The spongy Palmetto logs will manage to withstand a lot of that British attack, whereas even facing far fewer numbers of bullets, the British, with their more brittle wooden ships, better for seafaring, will take a lot more damage and their ships are gonna be pretty cut up by the end of the battle. Uh, ultimately, I'd say that it's a combination of British, maybe strategic mistakes and the colonists better structural materials that help the colonists win a very unexpected victory.

William: Now when I was looking into a little bit about this, this story, isn't it some kind of crazy ratio, not just you mentioned the, the dichotomy in the number of guns, but the number of shots fired. I came across somewhere that it was like for every one shot fired by the forts defenders, the British fired 50 at the fortification?

Walter: I, I I have seen the 50 to one number as well and I I think it is pretty remarkable that because the colonists are basically holding back fire. It's mentioned throughout the battle and they are trying to not take shots until they know that they're gonna hit something. It does help that the British get their ships very close to the shoreline and are within pretty easy cannon range of the colonists, and so that the those colonial bullets do pack a punch as opposed to fairly ineffective British cannon fire. So yeah, so it's a truly remarkable victory in several ways.

William: Now in another place I was reading that the that Commodore Parker was wanting to bring his fleet closer so that they would have more destructive energy, more momentum behind the shot to try and break through the palmettos.

Walter: Mm-hmm.

William: But it was actually his local pilot who was afraid of the shots coming from the Fort, both the cannon fire as well as the musket and rifle shot, and refused to direct or kind of guide the vessels closer and kept them farther away. Have you seen or come across this anywhere?

Walter: I think well, I don't know about the later part of that story in that I haven't seen that specific note, but I would mention that the local pilot might have been onto something in that the harbor is not as wide as Parker believes. Like as you get closer to Sullivan's Island, it is not still 20 feet deep directly next to that island, it's basically it's a relatively narrow channel that sneaks through the harbor. The pilots, who largely would have been either enslaved African Americans, or now Freedman, are going to give Parker a few pieces of intelligence that it at some point it's kind of what you do with them, what you do with the piece of intelligence that matters. And I get the sense that he did not make full use of what intelligence resources he had. So I would say that he didn't come right, he came fairly close, but not right next to the fort, and if he had done that, he might have hit some sand on the opposite side as the place that he did.

William: Now, do we have any idea about how close the vessels were when they were engaging with Fort Moultrie?

Walter: We've seen the the channel is about from Moultrie to the place where the where the British ships would have run aground, that's only about a mile and the main channel is within about the quarter mile to three quarter mile range. So I'm gonna say that on average, they were about half a mile away from the colonists position, and that would have even then been well within cannon range to get a shot across.

William: Interesting.

Adrian: Alright, so what are some of the common questions or misconceptions that visitors might have when they hear the story of Fort Moultrie or when they visit you?

Walter: So a couple of things that I would mention, one is some people will come and ask, well, where's the Palmetto log fort?

Adrian: [laugh]

Walter: And the answer is that it is no longer here. So some people come expecting it if they've heard a little bit about the battle and what they generally find is that the fort withstood those British cannonballs but didn't, did not survive a couple large hurricanes, which are a fact of life over here in the low country.

Adrian: Yeah.

Walter: So that the current fort that we've got today is an 1809 fort, that is the third version of Fort Moultrie and it is made out, it is largely a brick Fort. It would have been used starting in the pre-War of 1812 era and it's what fought in the Civil War and fought even in even in a bit in World War Two. So we have a little confusion about what our site is currently today preserving. I think there's also a like because of, for example the Palmetto flag, the Palmetto tree and Crescent Moon ending up on the South Carolina state flag, that has ended up being almost a misconception in itself, the Palmetto logs are the only reason that the Patriots won the battle. And I would say that the British conflicts in planning and consistent delays and ultimately their failed plans of attack are gonna make a significant difference in the colonists winning the battle. I think the colonists ended up having better planning than the British did and I think we can't put it all down to the structure, we have to give a little credit to to the people involved as well.

Adrian: The British beat themselves in a way.

Walter: Yes, I oh, I definitely think the British beat themselves. There's also occasional confusion between Sumter and Moultrie. Particular, most people going to Moultrie don't have this mistake, but, when some people come to Fort Sumter and ask about the first shots of the Civil War, I've, I've heard questions of ohh like ohh, so what role did the Palmetto logs play in the battel? And the answer that is that they didn't in that battle they played a role in the 1776 battle. So yeah, I I would say little things, but I I would say those are a few of the misconceptions. The, there is a cool kind of controversy over the South Carolina state flag that I could mention. I'm guessing you and your listeners are probably familiar with the flag with the dark blue background, the Palmetto tree in the middle and the Crescent in the corner. The Palmetto, the symbols are in fact because of the 1776 battle. The Palmetto Tree got added to many South Carolina related flags in the years after the Revolutionary War and was added to the state flag in 1861 by the Confederacy. But it's intended to be a symbol of resilience that the colonists had managed to turn back the British Royal Navy, using these Palmetto logs. The Crescent people argue about it all the time. Some people will say that it is a gorget like the neck brace that many medieval soldiers would have worn against potential attacks to their throat area. One of, one author, local author with a good book about William Moultrie has argued, and I tend to take this position as well, that it comes from Moultrie’s crest. That many, many second sons of families like himself would have had a crescent like symbol on their crest. And so the he argues that that's the main reason he did as well, and they would have flown that crescent during the battle here at Fort Sullivan.

Adrian: Cool. Alright, so after the battle what happens, what's what does it affect, the American Revolution, especially in the South?

Walter: So I would say a couple things. One in terms of how it impacts the South, it really damages the, it is a complete failure for the first major British attempt to take the southern colonies of the future U.S. And so it basically, like the war moves away from the South for the next couple of years really, you have a lot of, you still have Patriots versus Loyalist fighting in places like North Carolina and elsewhere, but much of the, the regular British Army is gonna have a limited presence in the South until, let's say late 1778 before they start to move towards Savannah and Charleston again. So, this really does buy Charleston a lease on life for being independent from the British for what’ll end up being another four years. Umm, a symbolic impact that it's gonna have, it does not cause this, but it lines up pretty well symbolically with our Declaration of Independence. So this is, this battle happens June 28th at 1776. That's just about a week before the final I’s are dotted and T's are crossed on the Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia. Of course, William Moultrie couldn't have gotten on his mobile phone to Thomas Jefferson and John Adams to say “we won the battle, you can finish writing now,” but they were able to get word up there by the time you get to early August, which is when everyone's finished signing the document. So it could have been a limited, it could have been a kind of morale defeat right around the time of the signing of the Declaration that, oh man, the British are able to start cutting into our territory and we haven't even begun being a country yet. But it ends up being a morale victory that the most powerful navy in the world has now been, at least today vanquished by some ragtag militias and their Palmetto logs. So I would say in addition to the strategic impact, it also does have a kind of morale impact on the rest of the country and the war effort.

Adrian: Yeah, that's that's true. I haven't even thought about that.

William: Now when it comes to kind of the complexity of the stories and some of the layers of the stories that you've been sharing with us, do you have one that is kind of your favorite topic or an untold or lesser-known story related to the fort’s defense?

William: Alright, so my favorite, so my favorite story about 1776 in itself is a pretty well-known one around here, but it's about a man named Sergeant William Jasper who during the battle the, while the British don't do that much damage to the Palmetto logs, they do manage to hit with a cannonball the flagpole. Umm, the for the Patriot flag, which would have been that dark blue field and just the crescent. No tree on it. So as it topples to the ground, that is one kind of again, with morale, potential, morale boost for the British and potential morale downer for the Americans that their flag has been cut down. Sergeant William Jasper is going to save the flag. He is going to manage to get it back up and the way he does it is he ties the remnants of the flagpole to what we would call a sponge rammer or a sponge staff, which is what they usually would have been using to clean their cannons. So I think it's a moment of both creativity and bravery, getting up on ramparts with cannonballs potentially flying at you to manage, manage to get the flag back up and restore a moments victory to your own side and this to this battle. So I think that's my favorite inside that I also do want to touch on a little bit of Charleston during the war, the rest of the war. Because beyond this one day it's a very interesting place to live and I encourage people to learn more about it. I'll I'll mention a couple of books in a few minutes on what's life like in Charleston as the Revolution goes on. Early in the war, we already mentioned the late 1775 attempt to escape for many, many enslaved workers around the area and the uncomfortable truth kind of for us with our glad “we're a country today” with the uncomfortable truth for many of us is that for some people, the British might have been seen as a better option. That if you were enslaved in the area and your owner was a Patriot, then you might want to escape the British lines and potentially become free. And for some people, the British aren't gonna be all consistent on that regard. But they are going to honor that freedom for some people. So it's something we need to acknowledge. Later in the war, the British do, and here's the terrible secret after we've talked about this amazing victory for an hour, the British captured Charleston in 1780. Don't don't tell your listeners. Uh, because they managed to this time, get past the Fort and also have a land invasion from the north. So they learned their lesson from the first time, they focused on invading from the north of Charleston, up from Savannah, and they they managed to basically just send their fleet right by the Fort and not engage in battle. Once that happens, and once the British takeover Charleston for about their last two and a half, three years of the Revolution you've got, you've got a real devil's choice if you're an ordinary citizen of this city on who you think is gonna win the Revolution and who you're gonna tie your horse to, you've got the the maybe the worry of getting your land taken away if you pick the wrong side. So under British occupation, the patriots are gonna get their land taken away sometimes and under renewed patriot occupation the Loyalists are gonna get their land taken away. So you've really got a difficult choice in terms of what you need to do is stay on the right side of whoever's in charge now in Revolutionary War Charleston. Even get dueling loyalty oaths. The British by the end of the war, have a tension between recruiting some of these black soldiers and protecting the property of slave-owning Loyalists as well. So it really is a tangled web and an interesting topic for listeners to learn more about is what life would have been like in an occupied city here during the American Revolution.

Adrian: Maybe we could do an episode on that sometime later, Will.

William: Oh, no, we're definitely gonna circle back around for the uh, the 1780 siege story, the ‘82 siege.

Walter: For sure, yeah.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Uh. definitely.

Walter: Mm-hum.

William: So don't worry, Walt, we got you.

Walter: We would love to be back on.

Willam: We got you. We're coming back around.

Adrian: Can you give us some sources that people can find in their libraries, find in the bookstores, somewhere to learn more?

Walter: Sure. My personal favorite book about the this battle, and it's kind of a biography of a man who led it for the Americans, is called Crescent Moon Over Carolina by CL Bragg. So it it it's a it it's a good biography of William Moultrie himself and it goes into pretty good detail about this Battle of Sullivans Island. Definitely encourage people to read that. I've also been, there's a regarding the later war stuff, there's been a a report by a woman named Christina Butler, who, along with some others, wrote a book report on British-occupied Charleston from 1780 to 1782. Her husband, Nick Butler, is a historian at the Charleston County Public Library and runs an excellent podcast and blog called the Charleston Time Machine, which can give you some really good, like really boiled down summaries of some of these important Revolutionary War events and other stuff that was happening on Sullivans Island and beyond. You can also come to our programs at Fort Sumter and Fort Moultrie National Historical Park. I don't know what time of year this will come out yet, but we hold an annual commemoration for Carolina Day, which is a weekend surrounding June 28th each year, Carolina Day is what people in South Carolina now call the date of the Battle of Sullivans Island and we are happy to talk about that. We have artillery and musket firing demonstrations and living historians and to let people understand what goes on here at this, what goes on here at this place in 1776.

Adrian: Awesome

[Outro Violin Music]

Adrian: Alright, well, that's going to conclude another episode of a Southern War. A podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. To learn more about the American Revolution and our home National Park sites, check out www.nps.gov/NISI for me, Ranger Adrian at Ninety Six National Historic Site and www.nps.gov/OVVI for Ranger Will with the Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail, and you can check out www.nps.gov/FOSU for Fort Moultrie and Fort Sumter. Thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and we'll see you next time when we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. Alright, bye.

William: Bye.

[Violin music]

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site.

William: Together we will explore some of the well-known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to dive in.

(Musket shot)

William: So today our guest is Ranger Paul Cothren from Cowpens National Battlefield. Thanks for joining us, Paul.

Paul: Uh, thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to it.

William: Umm, so can you tell us a little bit about your background. Kind of how long have you been there at Cowpens? What brought you there and what do you enjoy about it?

Paul: I came to Cowpens as a seasonal Park Ranger in the summer of 2019. I really enjoyed my time here and realized that I didn't know anything about the American Revolution like I thought I did. So the story of the Southern Campaign and the Revolution of the South really hooked me, and I've returned. I am currently a GS-6 Park Guide permanent now at Cowpens. I have lived and worked most exclusively in National Parks since 2002. Yellowstone National Park, had toured in the Grand Tetons with the Park Service, I worked in Yellowstone, Cowpens, Vicksburg National Military Park as a volunteer and Buffalo National River in Arkansas as well. And that's both in the private and the public sector, with NPS and other organizations as an interpretive guide.

William: Wow, that's quite a diversified background. It seems like you have a lot of uh, a lot of travels under your belt before you're able to come here to the Revolutionary War.

Paul: I did. I I traveled a lot. Even did some time in Death Valley, uh, I've worked in the Florida Keys as well. I've been around a little bit, lived in every time zone as a matter of fact.

Adrian: What's your favorite area of the country that you've lived?

Paul: I am addicted to the northern Rocky Mountains. And that is my favorite part of the world that I have been able to get to so far.

Adrian: Awesome. I have not been there yet.

Paul: Uh, you should go today. You should back up and go on vacation. I encourage everyone to get to the northern Rocky Mountains, Yellowstone, Glacier, the Grand Tetons. It is the backbone of the world. Almost. Adrian: Alright, so I guess back to our focus. What area or region are we focusing on with the Cowpens story? And where is that then and now?

Paul: The area of Cowpens in the American Revolution time frame is what's commonly referred to as the Southern Campaign of the American Revolution. So umm, think Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina and up into Virginia. Cowpens today is a handful of miles away from the southern border of North Carolina. In 1781, Cowpens is what honestly in the wilderness there is not much around here in 1781, it's on the ragged edge of the frontier, butts up against Native American lands and Cowpens is a local landmark for folks. In this part of the world, the Green River Road, the historic Green River Road, cuts through an open area in the middle of the forest in the middle of the wilderness and road may be a generous term to give to the Green River Road, it's a muddy wagon track through the middle of the wilderness. And this open area at Cowpens is, for lack of a better word, it's used as a cow pasture for folks driving their cattle to and from market towns back in 1781, and even before that. There are creeks on each side of the battlefield, along with a natural rivercane thicket that forms a natural fence where folks could stop, let their cattle graze, that become became known locally as the Cowpens. It's not the only cowpens on the frontier or in South Carolina, but for this area of the world at that time, it's a, it's a really well known landmark where Daniel Morgan leads his army in and on January of 1781 and makes a stand against Banastre Tarleton and his British Army. Just a well-known place where everybody can gather up. Today, Cowpens is about 845 acres of the Cowpens National Battlefield, and it's historical resources, it's cultural resources and it's the natural resource park as well. It is a very, very popular destination for folks looking to get outside, get a little exercise on our walking paths, and it's a very popular part with the local folks to come out and do some walking or some biking.

Adrian: So what towns is it nearby?

Paul: Umm, we are near Spartanburg, South Carolina that's gonna be the the largest metropolitan big city. Uh, we're close to Chesnee SC, as well a small little hamlet couple miles away from that, and not far from Interstate 85 near Gaffney, SC. Charlotte, NC, is an hour and a half or so drive from the Cowpens National Battlefield.

Adrian: So if you see the giant Peachoid on the interstate, you're nearby.

Paul: Yeah. Nearby, you're about 10 or 11 miles away. Yeah, the giant peach.

William: So you mentioned a little bit about January and 1781, but can you talk a little bit more about kind of when in the revolution is this event taking place? What are kind of some key moments that have preceded and led up to this moment that we're here at this cattle pasture near a giant peach?

Paul: Uh, James and the giant Peach was not here in 1781. Uh, so in the timeline of the American Revolution, this is the height of the Southern Campaign of the Revolution. The Southern Campaign is the new British strategy to subdue the colonies and try to bring the revolution back in control and bring at least the southern colonies back under control of the crown. By 1780, 1779-1780, it's kind of a stalemate between the British Army and the Continental Army in the northern colonies up around New York and the British are looking to open up a new front. And that front is going to be Georgia beginning in seven, late 1778 and into 1779 they are going to revert to this Southern strategy and bring an Army south. The British are embroiled in what is now a world war. The French have declared war on the British and come in on the side of the Americans along with other nations and the world war is really sapping their, their money for lack of a better word. Uh, they're looking to bring in get the South, particularly Georgia and South Carolina, back under the crown so they can start using the export crops: the rice, the indigo, the tobacco. So to pick that back up, the British have come into Georgia in late 1778 and into 1779, and Georgia has come under almost complete control of the crown. And then the British are pushing into South Carolina after their conquest of Georgia, and Cowpens is taking place at the height of this Southern Campaign. Charleston falls to the British in May of 1780, and then there's a string of victories by the British Army, mostly under Cornwallis, General Cornwallis. Banastre Tarleton is gonna win the Battle of the Waxhaws, then you got the major defeat by the American Army under Horatio Gates in August of 1780. Cornwallis defeats him handily at the Battle of Camden. And really, the next major battle, the height of the Southern Campaign in South Carolina is the Cowpens. Now there's a lot of battles going on, particularly among the populace here, the militias, Musgrove Mill, particularly King's Mountain in October of 1780 as well, and the Cowpens is kind of the culmination of Cornwallis's endeavor to subdue South Carolina for the crown.

Adrian: So sounds like we've got the British and the Continental Army, is that right? Who are some of the key players and you know, main leaders on both sides for the Cowpens battle.

Paul: Alright, we'll start with the home team first. So we'll talk about the Continental Army about this time in South Carolina, around the Battle of Cowpens. You've got Major General Nathanael Greene, who is the overall southern commander of the Southern Army. And Nathanael Greene has the man that I think that every commander in the Continental Army would like to have had in his army leading men, and that's the newly appointed Brigadier General Daniel Morgan. Daniel Morgan has got two superlative commanders under him, he's got uh Lieutenant Colonel John Eager Howard from Maryland, who is gonna be leading the Continentals from Maryland and Delaware here on the battlefield, about 300 strong. And he's also got Lieutenant Colonel William Washington, distant cousin of George, with the Third Continental Light Dragoons. The Battle of Cowpens is gonna be heavily engaged with the militia here as well. So in overall command of all of the militia forces and those are gonna be boys from South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia and some Virginia militia as well, the overall commander for all of those is Colonel Andrew Pickens, who might have the slowest heartbeat on the battlefield at Cowpens on January 17, 1781. A really, really good solid militia commander. So you got guys from North Carolina here. These guys, these militia guys, Joseph McDowell is leading the North Carolinians. And then you have South Carolinians under Benjamin Roebuck and all these names will be familiar to the South Carolinians, for sure. Lieutenant Colonel Benjamin Roebuck, with part of the Spartan Regiment. You've got Colonel John Thomas with part of the Spartan Regiment, Thomas Brandon is going to be here with part of the Fair Forest Regiment, Joseph Hayes, here with the Little River Regiment. The Georgia militia are under commanders Cunningham and Hammond, and the Virginians are here under Wallace and Tate and Triplett, just to give a couple of names for those folks, not from South Carolina. Now the British Army in South Carolina by this time is under command overall command of Lieutenant General Cornwallis and Cornwallis has dispatched his best, most reliable, most aggressive commander to deal with Daniel Morgan's piece of the Southern Army, and that man is Lieutenant Colonel Banastre Tarleton. Tarleton has got a really, really crack unit of about 1,100 here at the Battle of Cowpens. And it's gonna be his commanders under him or Major Arthur MacArthur with the 71st Scottish Highlanders. And Lieutenant Roderick McKenzie in there as well. Major Timothy Newmarsh is here with the 7th Fusiliers, the 7th Regiment of Foot. Lieutenant Henry Nettles is here with the 17th Light Dragoons of the British Army, redcoats. And then you have David Ogilvey and John Rousselette are leading both the calvary and the infantry section of the dreaded British Legion.

Adrian: Now Paul, you said a word a couple of times that maybe some of our listeners may not know. What is a dragoon?

Paul: What is a dragoon? Dragoons are mounted infantry, cavalry for lack of a or put it in a better term for folks to understand. Mounted on horseback, going to have a carbine that's a cut down version of a shorter version of black powder musket. Course gonna have sabers and probably pistols as well. The British have at the beginning of the war, at least they have the 16th and the 17th Dragoons from the British Army are the only ones deployed to the colonies, and at the beginning of the war, the Continental Congress has not authorized any American Continental cavalry. That quickly changes when the war really gets heated up and you got the first, second, third and fourth light dragoons raised in the colonies. Now, both sides are going to augment those cavalry forces with either patriots or loyalists from either side and form them into legions, form them into cavalry troops. There are South Carolina mounted dragoons, state troops, on the battlefield at Cowpens under McCall and Jolly.

William: Okay Paul, so we've got a great rundown about we're looking at a cow pasture with a wagon road passing through kind of the northwestern part of South Carolina. We are looking at in the height of the Southern Campaign as you pointed out, we've got some big names involved here, both regular army as well as local leaders. What's actually gonna happen here? What brings these forces to meet at this cattle pasture of the Cowpens? And what's gonna be the result?

Paul: Nathanael Greene, in order to cover a little bit more ground in South Carolina, gives his some of his best troops to Brigadier General Daniel Morgan, sends him into this backcountry part of South Carolina for a couple of reasons. He's going to send him here number one to spirit up, the people, help the people realize that they're still Continentals in South Carolina, after the defeat at Camden in August of 1780, and he's looking for Daniel Morgan to gather some supplies. And to counter the splitting of Greene’s Army, Cornwallis has to split his own army as well. Cornwallis is gonna shadow Greene’s army over near the Cheraw district, and he's going to give 1,100 of his best, as we mentioned, to Banastre Tarleton and Tarleton is gonna have one of two objectives. He is either going to bring Daniel Morgan to battle and destroy Daniel Morgan's army, or he's going to push and funnel Daniel Morgan's army back over closer to Cornwallis who’s going to be moving up, and they're supposed to jointly, possibly corner Daniel Morgan's army and wipe it out. When Cornwallis and Tarleton realized where Daniel Morgan's army is, and it's not down near Ninety Six, it's more up here in this upper back country, Tarleton does what he does best. He is going to get on the hunt and he is going to relentlessly pursue Daniel Morgan to up here in this Broad River, Pacolet River basin area. It's about a six- or seven-day hunt for Tarleton and he is at his best again at this is what he does. The problem that Tarleton really has is that Daniel Morgan's got a pretty good head start on him. And he is going to push his British Army past its breaking point just to catch up with Morgan's army up here near the Cowpens. And Daniel Morgan is gonna move the Continental Army in here on the afternoon of January the 16th, guided here by his local South Carolinians, the men that we mentioned earlier, Roebuck, Pickens, those kinds of men. And the whole idea is that Morgan cannot maneuver anymore. He's going to have to make a stand because Tarleton is closed so quickly on him and he is at least come to the Cowpens, gather up your guys, think about what you want to do next, and when Morgan sees the ground at the Cowpens with the flanks protected by the creeks and the ravines and the rivercane, the gently rolling, undulating plane here in this open area, he decides to make his stand. And Tarleton is still on the still on the march, still on the hunt at this point on the 16th, his troopers, his own army actually doesn't go into camp until about 10 o'clock on the night of the 16th after almost two days of forced marches without any rest. Tarleton's army is outstripped, its out-marched it's rations and they are exhausted already before they even get to the Battle of Cowpens on the morning of the 17th of January. The cold morning. Um, they're tired, they're hungry, they march in here to the field at Cowpens and arrive at about dawn after getting up at 2:00 AM and just getting to the Cowpens. Banastre Tarleton brings his army onto the battlefield at Cowpens at about daybreak, and Daniel Morgan has already got his army on the battlefield, well rested, well fed and well aware of what Daniel Morgan wants to battle to play out. Morgan is going to, quite honestly, it's an ingenious plan, uh, of using 3 successive lines of defense. A line of sharp shooters out front to really slow the British Army down as they started advancing and then Andrew Pickens’s approximately 1,000 militia lined up in a second line to again whittle down the British as they advance up the battlefield, and then a third line of the professional Continentals on the back of the battlefield. Three successive lines of more difficult fighting to get to, and it's ingenious, it truly is. And Daniel Morgan has been able to do something in a really short amount of time that I'm not sure that we give him credit for enough and that is taking a professional army of Continentals, meaning the Maryland and Delaware Continental Infantry and the American Cavalry, and then citizen soldiers and quickly melding them into what turns out to be a very powerful army. And he does it really quickly. Mostly based off of his reputation and just the his cult of personality, Morgan has these men believing in him and believing that they can beat Banastre Tarleton’s army before the battle ever starts. And I don't think he gets enough credit for that part of it. Not so sure anybody else could have done that so quickly in such a short amount of time. When the battle commences. Banastre Tarleton is in a rush to begin with. He quickly tries to deploy out the British Army astride the Green River Road. Particularly on the British left, if we're moving from South to North-ish the great rivercane thicket is really gonna slow down the troops on the left trying to get in position. And Tarleton, I think he actually knows that his army is worn out and then he's going to have to close on Morgan quickly. So he deploys them out quickly and the battle lines are not completely formed for him when he starts the British infantry up the battlefield. The sharpshooters from Morgan’s line do their work. They are just supposed to aim for the epaulette men take out as many officers as they can, as the British Army starts up the battlefield, they meld, they fall back in with the main militia line under overall command of Andrew Pickens. Andrew Pickens and all of the men on the American side here have a, know what the battle plan is. Morgan is going to, for lack of a better word, he's gonna use the militia as bait to draw Banastre Tarleton into the battlefield. He wants those militias boys to fire two or three shots at the advancing British infantry line, those militia boys, and have them redeploy to the back of the battlefield, form back up and then get back into the fight. Umm, as it turns out, the British Army, being the professionals they are, the good soldiers that they are closed so quickly on Pickens’s militia that most of them only get off 1 volley. Now Benjamin Roebucks guys are able to get off a second volley and there's a random second volley, but not one full volley of 1000 muskets going off inside of 50 yards at the British infantry line. When that one fire happens, the militia do what they're supposed to do, what the battle plan is, and that is redeploy to the back of the battlefield. Reform up and then get back into the fight. The main reason that there's not a sustained second or third volley is because the British infantry line absorbs that first volley from Pickens’s militia, and then they do what they're supposed to do against militia, and that is charge with the bayonet, and it just doesn't give the the militia time to get off of a second or third volley. When the militia falls back, the British infantry line pushes up and runs smack into the Continentals, who have been waiting on the battlefield. And there's about a 10-minuteish firefight between the main British infantry line and the Continental infantry line. It's quick, hot, deadly work that these boys are doing to each other on the battlefield. On the far right of the Continental line is gonna be one of the major players and that's the Virginia State troops under Wallace and Tate. At some point Tarleton even wrote this in his history of the Southern Campaign that he quickly realized that the main infantry line fight between the two armies was not going to decide the battle. So he's gonna bring in his reserves and that is the elite 71st Scottish Fraser Highlanders. And he's going to bring them around on the American right to outflank the American line. When that happens, Lieutenant Colonel John Eager Howard of the Continental line recognizes this and what he's asking to happen is a wheel right and refuse the right flank order to the Virginians on the far right of the American line. In the heat of battle they misunderstand that order and instead of refusing the right flank and that just means almost closing the door to the right and forming an angle to the right, they follow directly back. That opens up the remainder of the rest of the Continental line to the flanking maneuver by the 71st Highlanders, and at that point the entire American Continental line, umm, redeploys off to the back of the battlefield. Literally about faces and marches backwards. Daniel Morgan sees this retrograde movement, this unplanned redeployment, and he rides over quickly to John Eager Howard and says something along the lines of, "you’re beat and you're retreating" and Howard responds "no, I'm not retreating, I'm just redeploying." Morgan rides to the top of what we now refer to as Morgan Hill. He orders a halt and then there is a quick about face and the British have not stood idle during this they have spontaneously begun charging the Continental line. And why wouldn't you right if you're a British soldier? You've already driven these sharpshooter skirmishers from the battlefield, you've seen the militia run from the battlefield, and now you're seeing what you would think is the Continentals running from the battlefield? I would think that most British soldiers think that this is working out just about right and I'm tired, I'm cold, I'm hungry, if we charge them, we can drive them off the battlefield and I can rest and get a hot meal. So they're spontaneously charged when the Continental line redeploys, only to quickly be surprised when John Eager Howard, the American commander, stops that line. The Americans about-face some reports have it firing within 10 or 15 yards. The British are right on top of them. Let's not forget the militia in all of this, too. Daniel Morgan and Andrew Pickens have rallied the militia. The militia are beginning to sweep around on both flanks. William Washington is also involved in this. He's getting around on the left flank, most of Andrew Pickens’s militia swinging around on the American right flank, the British left flank, and the Continentals execute a bayonet charge right up the middle of the battlefield. You've got American dragoons and a little bit of militia coming around on the American left, the British right, you've got more militia and mounted cavalry swinging around on the American right, the British left and that is this classic that you read about double envelopment move that, Morgan, I honestly don't think you could have planned it if you had to. I think it kind of just spontaneously happens organically happens on the battlefield, but you've got commanders on the field, on the American side who are veterans, they see the opportunity and they just take it when they can. And this is the classic envelopment of the 1,100 man British Army on the battlefield, up the middle with the Continentals, on the left on the right with the militia, and quickly the American lines were able to encircle Banastre Tarleton's army on the battlefield. It is a near annihilation because of this double envelopment. Out of the 1,100 Brits that are here only a couple hundred of them and it's the mounted British Legion that are mainly mostly able to get off the battlefield at Cowpens.

William: Holy cow. You see, cow, Cowpens. That is a lot of fighting and I kind of wanna point out too, if my timing's not mistaken, the length of the battle is pretty close to how you just described it. Is that correct?

Paul: So yes, the Battle of Cowpens is going to begin and end all within about 30 minutes of each other. Give or take, right? Nobody sitting there with a stopwatch on the battlefield, but it's about a 30-minute fight and there's a whole lot going on both sides in a really short amount of time. Almost, Ranger Will, it's almost everything is going on simultaneously, is one way that I like to put it. It's a small battlefield, only about 5 or 600 yards wide, only about 5 or 600 yards long, with creeks and ravines and boggy ground on each side. So everything right there is happening within sight and it's happening almost simultaneously. The British are pushing forward, the main line is pushing forward, the Americans are absorbing this, they're falling back, cavalry charges on the American left, the British right, all of this is kind of going on all at the same time. Just controlled madness, for lack of a better way to put it. It's a really, really short battle, a really, really important short battle.

William: And I want to highlight that one more time before we do keep moving on. When you look at this like you said that this chaos, you look at this flurry of action and movement. I mean, these men have been working towards this moment, waiting for it, marching towards it for hours, days and in some cases, weeks. And here it is about 30 minutes of controlled chaos. I can't imagine having that that kind of experience.

Paul: One way that I like to put it is these are just regular, ordinary, everyday guys, some of them citizen soldiers. It's their first battle. Some of these men are veterans of many battles in the Southern Campaign and the northern campaigns, and regardless of who, what color they're wearing, whether they're wearing red or whether they're wearing Continental blue, it's just normal people doing really scary things in a really short amount of time.

William: I like that, normal people doing scary things.

Adrian: Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. So you mentioned the British Legion, Paul. Who are they? Where are they from? And do they represent anything specific for the Southern Theater or about the Southern Theater?

Paul: The British Legion is Banastre Tarleton's Legion. Now when they get formed into a legion, it is in the northern colonies, specifically New York, and this is gonna happen in 1778. I mentioned a little bit earlier that both the American and the British side are trying to bolster their forces by using men loyal to the king or Patriots loyal to the revolution cause, and that is what the British legion is. That's where these men are gonna come from. It's going to be men formed into this legion, then there's also a second legion as well, but this is the British Legion, and these are boys from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Connecticut. There's gonna be deserters eventually in here from the Continental Army, mostly from Maryland and Pennsylvania. Tarleton is eventually given command of this legion. It doesn't take long. He is rising quickly through the ranks of the British Army. With a very good reputation of being a a really hard fighter, a really good young commander. And their operating in the northern colonies to, in the beginning of the of their inception. It's interesting with the British Legion, they quickly gained a reputation, a dubious reputation even in the northern colonies, of being extraordinarily overzealous at times and undisciplined. So much so that, umm, 50 of the 17th Light Dragoons that we mentioned a little bit earlier are permanently assigned to the British Legion when they're stationed in Connecticut to try to instill more discipline in the ranks. They serve well in the northern colonies, and then when the British revert to the Southern Campaign strategy, they come down with the British Army for the second invasion of Charlestown, Charleston, SC in 1780 and quickly become a vital piece of Cornwallis's southern campaign. They are again, as we mentioned, mounted infantry. They move really quickly. Tarleton is like a hunting leopard as he's been described before, and they quickly gain and keep supporting this reputation that they have already gained in the northern colonies. Tarleton has molded them into a really formidable fighting force and being colonists loyal to King George the Third, they show a complete lack of patience and maybe even sympathy for the colonists that are fighting against the crown. And they gain a fearsome reputation, mostly, and mainly coming from Buford’s Defeat at the Waxhaws, and there's a lot of other fighting they're doing at Lenud’s Ferry, they're part of the expedition that burns Thomas Sumter's home not long after the surrender of Charleston that brings him back into the war. They are also going to be split up at times, the British Legion, not always under command of Banastre Tarleton. There's a punitive expedition up the Peedee River basin by Major Weymss and part of the British Legion is on this punitive expedition against the citizens of South Carolina up the uh, up the basin there in southern South Carolina. So even though they're not being led by Tarleton at times pieces of them, they're still the citizens of South Carolina are still seeing these mounted horse troopers in green, and they're gonna wear green to separate themselves from the regular British Army redcoats. So as these punitive expeditions and burning down people's plantations or homes like Sumter and the punitive expedition up the Peedee River, South Carolinians are seeing these green coated troopers throughout the state and their reputation just continues to grow. And Banastre Tarleton, who even to this day is a very, very controversial figure in the American Revolution, he's the main commander of this of this group of British Legion running roughshod at times over other militia forces in South Carolina, particularly at the Waxhaws. And there's a lot of questions about Banastre Tarleton and his legion in the 21st century, in the late 20th 21st century. Does Tarleton really and his legion really deserve the reputation that they have been given in the history of the American Revolution? Most of it is gonna come from the Battle of Waxhaws, Buford's massacre. And whether Banastre Tarleton is as brutal as the history books make him out to be can be debated. Maybe he is, and maybe he's not. But I think there may be two pieces to this. Number one is that the American propaganda machine really grabs a hold of this story of Tarleton at the Battle of Waxhaws, where undoubtedly American soldiers are killed while surrendering and after surrendering at the Battle of Waxhaws. I guess the question is always gonna be as whether Banastre Tarleton personally orders this or not. The evidence says that he probably didn't, but that does happen, and irregardless, the Americans grab onto this and use it as a really good piece of propaganda against the British. It's Bloody Banastre Tarleton and Tarleton's Quarter from the Waxhaws. And on the other side of that is that I think Banastre Tarleton plays into this role of being the bad guy as well. I think he plays into that. I think he grabs ahold of that. Whether he is actually as brutal as we make him out to be, but he plays that role really, really well at times, not exclusively, but at times and it helps his legion. It helps him accomplish his goal to win battles and instill fear in the American militia and the Continentals before he even gets to the battlefield, so I think he relishes that role a little bit.

Adrian: Sounds like it might save him some fighting.

Paul: And it does at times, right? When you hear that, particularly at the Battle of Kings Mountain, possibly right, the men at the Battle of Kings Mountain, the overmountain men literally do everything as quickly as they can to get off that mountain because they hear that Banastre Tarlenton’s legion’s coming and they vamanos off that mountain as quick as they can because they don't want to have to deal with Tarleton and the Legion. Now we're talking about this nearly 250 years after the events, right? And what we are doing is debating this topic of whether Banastre Tarleton and the British Legion are as brutal and as bloody. But maybe, quite honestly, it doesn't matter what we think 250 years later, in the 21st century. To the people of South Carolina in 1780, in 1781, he is Bloody Banastre Tarleton and the British Legion is a brutal loyalist provincial force that is coming down the road and they're coming to your plantation, and they're coming to your homestead. I think it's their opinion matters more than our debate at this point.

Adrian: Perspective. It's all in how you see people, right?

Paul: I think so. So it's ultimately those people that lived it. But my first summer in ’19, Adrian, I was at the front desk here and this ancient little old lady, great grandmother, she was 100 years old if she was a day, she brings her walker up to the counter near the register and she tells me this story and I wish I would have been a good enough park Ranger at the time to realize I needed to do an interview for this. But she said when and she grew up on a plantation down in rice king country, and she said that when she was a little girl, uh, her great grandmother used to come on the porch of the house where all the kids and the grandkids were playing and scream at them ‘You little Tarletons, get off of this porch and go play in the yard. Get out of here, you little Tarletons.’

Adrian: God! [Laugh]

Paul: And I wish again that I would have been versed enough to do an interview with her as a brand new Park Ranger to get that on, get that recorded. So that is the legacy of Banastre Tarleton in South Carolina 250 years after the event, when her great grandmother, who's probably 100 years old as well right, is referring to kids as little Tarletons get off this porch. I thought it's one of the greatest stories that I've heard about Tarleton and the Legion and their legacy in South Carolina 250 years later. So at the height of the battle when Banastre Tarleton is realizing yelling militia charging Continentals coming directly up the battlefield encircling his army on the battlefield, we mentioned the 71st Scottish Highlanders being in a reserve position, kind of the shock troops, well, the British Legion at Cowpens is somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 and 550 strong. Some of them on foot as infantry the vast majority of them on horseback, as cavlary, as dragoons and Tarleton has held back two hundred 250 of those boys in green, the British Legion, and as the Americans begin sweeping up the battlefield and overrunning the British lines, Tarleton orders the two hundred 250 or so British Legion boys on horseback to salvage the battle, charge up the battlefield with sabers, and begin cutting the American lines to pieces to salvage the battle, get his guns back, and the British have two pieces of artillery at the Battle of Cowpens as well. The Americans have none. And those British boys, quite literally about face and they ride off the battlefield as quickly as they can. There may be 2 pieces to this, probably more than that, but a lot of these British Legion boys by the time of the Battle of Cowpens are recruits from South Carolina, some of them are even POWs from the American POW camps down around Camden, so they are not exactly the original makeup of New Yorkers, and New Jersians and Pennsylvanians. Tarleton has been fighting, and fighting hard in South Carolina in 1780 and ‘81. He's taking casualties and he's having to replace these Legion troops with again POW, deserters, whoever they might be, so they may not be as totally as enthusiastic as the the original makeup of the British Legion. And in addition to that, as I think that they have realized by this point that, uh, Lieutenant Colonel Banastre Tarleton has bitten off more than he can chew at the Battle of Cowpens. And has been out-generaled, and unfortunately, the British boys on the battlefield paid for Tarleton’s impetuous nature so to speak, when he attacks, maybe prematurely on the battlefield at Cowpens.

William: So, Paul, thanks for that that in-depth look at who these guys were, not just the British Legion, but kind of what they represented, what the myths that surrounded them at the Battle of Cowpens and the larger Southern campaign. So you see, we've seen how they flee the field. The British army’s defeated, I mean like you described Tarleton as this hunting leopard. He's been defeated. He's been in detail, chased off the battlefield. Surely this has some massive impacts? Some, some ripples throughout this Southern campaign. What is this going to do to the Southern Theater of the Revolution?

Paul: It's a really good question, Ranger Will, and I think Morgan's complete victory here, reset the entire chess board for the Southern Campaign and maybe even arguably for the entire Revolution as a whole. Cornwallis, who is only 30 miles away from here on the morning of the Battle of Cowpens with about 1,300 Redcoats in camp, he's got another 13 to 1,500 within a day or two's march coming up from Charleston, but the troops that he loses here at the Cowpens are the best that he has. We mentioned the elite 71st Scottish Fraser Highlanders, he loses the two pieces of artillery, but more importantly, this army, that is all but annihilated here on the battlefield are his best Light Infantry, which are playing a pivotal role on battlefields by this time of the American Revolution. These are the hardiest they're the fastest moving troops in an army, and the British have quickly adopted this idea of having to fight irregular soldiers, meaning American militia on the battlefields and the Light Infantry plays a huge role. By the time Tarleton finds his way back to Cornwallis camp over near Turkey Creek on the day after the battle, Cornwallis is already trying to figure out a way to replace these troops because they are gone. Tarleton has lost 110 killed, 230 or so wounded that are left at the Cowpens and then Daniel Morgan and his army have rounded up over 600 POWs and they are marching them over the Broad River at Island Ford, trying to put more distance between his army and Cornwallis's army, and Cornwallis, it takes him a day or two to kind of recover from this shock. At one point, there is an American POW in Cornwallis's camp who related that it was such a shock to Cornwallis when he is listening to this story from Banastre, Tarleton, that he leans on his sword so hard, he snaps it in half, it's a huge blow. It takes Cornwallis a couple of days to try to wrap his mind around what has just happened, and then he begins the pursuit of Morgan's army out of South Carolina, into North Carolina. Having read some of Cornwallis's correspondence, I don't think that Cornwallis is sad to leave South Carolina. I think he's been trying to do it for a while. This ungentlemanly form of warfare amongst the militias in the population he doesn't like it. He's never liked it and he wants to get out of South Carolina. He's already tried once to get out of South Carolina, because of this defeat at Cowpens it gives him the final reason to pull his main redcoat army British Army out of South Carolina. He wants his prisoners back that Morgan is moving out of here. Morgan is going to link back up with the rest of the Southern Army under Nathanael Greene. I think Cornwallis is just really happy to get out of the South Carolina. And as I mentioned earlier, I think it resets the whole chess board. Nathanael Greene does a masterful job of leading Cornwallis's army through North Carolina on the the famous Race to the Dan River, up to the Dan River on in Virginia. It is a logistical and maneuverability campaign. It is brilliant. Cornwallis exhausts himself, he's exhausted his army. He's burning wagons. He's burning personal baggage just to try to catch up with Nathanael Greene’s Army and Greene does a masterful job of staying just out of reach of Cornwallis. Greene eventually turns around and comes back into North Carolina and makes a stand at Guilford Courthouse on March 15th of 1781. Cornwallis gives him battle at Guilford Courthouse, but he loses another third of his army in casualties. And here is where I think that the Cowpens in the Southern campaign really comes into focus. Cornwallis loses those best troops here at Cowpens. He loses another third of his army at Guilford Courthouse. He falls back to the coast of Wilmington, NC after the Battle of Guilford. He resupplies. He rests up a little bit and then he makes a conscious decision, probably without orders to and move into Virginia. I believe that he is more than half expecting Nathanael Greene’s Southern Army, to follow him to Virginia. But Nathanael Greene does not do that. He pulls back down, meaning Greene, pulls back down into South Carolina and begins a systematic dismantling of the British strongholds in South Carolina: Camden, uh Ninety Six, among others. Now, Greene doesn't win a whole lot of battles in South Carolina, but he is persistent and systematic in reducing these fire bases. He loses the Battle of Hobkirk’s Hill. He loses the Battle of Eutaw Springs. And I don't know how Adrian Ranger Adrian feels about this, but ultimately loses the siege at Ninety Six because he's not able to take it and he has to pull out. But with Cornwallis's main Southern army now in Virginia, the Southern campaign for all intents and purposes is gonna come to a close after Ninety Six is abandoned. Almost all the British troops end up in Charleston and get bottled up by Greene in Charleston. And then, of course, George Washington and the French surround Cornwallis at Yorktown. We all know that story. It's always been written and been said by many people that there would not have been a Yorktown, Virginia if it wasn't for the Battle of Cowpens, and I think that I think that that is really true. Now, there's a lot going on between Cowpens and Yorktown, even contemporaries at the time of Cornwallis were writing that had Cornwallis had the let's call it, 900 men, that he lost at the Cowpens that Yorktown would have been different. It's hard to deal in absolutes or what ifs, but if people at the time in Cornwallis's army or writing and saying this, it’s got to have a little credence to it. So the Battle of Cowpens to sum that up resets the whole chess board. It gives Cornwallis a different mindset about where he wants to go, where he wants to be, and where he wants to be is anywhere but South Carolina, and he makes that happen.

Adrian: I think that might be one of the few things that “The Patriot” gets right. What is one of your favorite stories from either the battle itself or from the surrounding area as a whole?

Paul: There's so many stories, right? Umm, I guess the one that I find myself using to help explain the civil war amongst the population in South Carolina during the entire Revolutionary War, not just the Southern Campaign, is that there are three brothers with a militia company called the Dugan brothers here at the Battle of Cowpens, Robert, James and William. They come here, they're in Daniel Morgans army and during the fighting believe it's Robert, dispatches a British officer on the battlefield as a militia soldier, and then, after the battle, Robert goes out, finds the officer and takes his sword. Those boys from are from down around Orangeburg about a day's horseback ride away or so, they leave the battlefield on the day of the battle, head back down to Orangeburg. Two of them go to their family homestead moms house, Robert and James do, William goes off on his own and an indeterminate amount of time later, and some people put this in with Bloody Bill Cunningham's raid, maybe not, but at some point, not long after the Battle of Cowpens, the word has gotten out what has happened here. Loyalists down around Orangeburg go around and begin raiding and taking prisoners of their patriot neighbors, and they find themselves at night with other prisoners at the Dugan homestead. They begin ransacking the cabin. Robert James are there. And as the Loyalist are ransacking the homestead, they find the officers sword that Robert had taken from the battlefield at Cowpens. At that point, they bring the two brothers out, the Loyalists bring the two brothers out, literally to the front yard, and this is it's it's no way I can sugarcoat what's about to happen here, y'all, so I'm sorry, but they hang the brothers in the front yard and then they use the the British officer sword that they found and literally hewed the body to pieces. Both brothers in front of the neighbors in front of their family. They even kill another one of the prisoners who is trying to escape and who can blame him right after watching that, why would you not try to get away? But the one thing that the Loyalist didn't count on is that the other brother William was not there and sometime after this horrible event, William tracks down all of his Loyalist neighbors who did this to his brothers, and he exacts his revenge on those Loyalists. And I use that as an example when I'm giving tours of the battlefield, because that is almost everything that is happening to Loyalist and Patriot families within South Carolina. In a nutshell, this is murder and it's revenge and it's rinse, wash and repeat from family to family, district to district throughout the entire American Revolution in the South.

Adrian: John Wick of the American Revolution.

Paul: I know, right?

William: So, Paul, as you've been sharing with us, there's just so much to understand and to research and learn about, not only this battle, but like you just shared with the Dugan brothers, kind of these surrounding connecting stories. And whenever there is something like this that is important and I don't want to say popular history, but it is remembered, and there's many stories that come out of it. There's always going to be misconceptions, or there's always going to be legends that grow bigger than the stories themselves. Do you have some favorites that you've kind of run across and heard at the national battlefield, either the most frequent questions that you get or misconceptions that a lot of visitors have about the Battle of Cowpens?

Adrian: Where's the bathroom?

Paul: Yeah the number one question in national parks is “where's the bathroom?” and number two is “have you seen my husband?” So I guess Ranger Will, I guess I'll go with some misconceptions over frequently asked questions. A lot of the visitors that come into the visitor center at Cowpens are surprised to learn that the Cowpens National Battlefield is not a Civil War battlefield and that it's a Revolutionary War battle from nearly 250 years ago. And when we start talking about the Revolution in the South, the Southern campaign that is so vital to both sides during the war, many of them say, and I've heard this repeatedly is “I had no idea the American Revolution came this far South.” And I think that speaks volumes as to how underrepresented, underreported, misunderstood the Revolution from 1775 until 1783. For most Americans, I think it's, umm, minute men in Massachusetts, it's the Declaration of Independence, it's George Washington, and it's Cornwallis surrendering at Yorktown. And I think I mentioned this earlier that as a historian, and as a someone who is reads a lot of military history, I thought I understood the American Revolution when I accepted the seasonal position here in 2019. And then I stepped off into the Revolution in South Carolina and realized that I knew nothing. Which is again what put the hooks hit me in and really got me wanting to come back here so I could learn more and explain more to visitors to the battlefield. When General George Washington surrounds Cornwallis's army in September of 1781 at Yorktown, it's the first time since the Battle of Monmouth Courthouse in late June of 1778 that George Washington is leading an army on a battlefield. And that is 3 years time frame between the Battle of Monmouth Courthouse and the Yorktown campaign. And if George Washington is not fighting battles with the Northern Continental Army against the British Army, then where is the American Revolution being decided? And it's here in South Carolina, Georgia, North Carolina, in this southern campaign. And I think that is, I think it's a shame that we don't, as a people with our history, really understand the Southern campaign and and what went down in South Carolina in particular in the American Revolution.

William: Nice.

Adrian: So Ranger, Paul, if people are interested in learning more about Cowpens, where can they go?

Paul: Well, first, I'm gonna encourage everybody to come to the Cowpens National Battlefield near Chesnee, SC, right off the highway 11 near the big peach in Gaffney, come see us. We'd love to have you come in the visitor center if you've got the time and the means. If you're on your way and during spring vacation to Florida or the South Carolina coast, we are easily accessible off I-85. Stop in, say hello, we'd love to see you in the National Park and get you out on the battlefield. Otherwise, there are many different outlets these days. You can visit us at the Cowpens National Battlefield website through the National Park Service, we have a Facebook page for Cowpens as well, it’s the national battlefield, there's even a Twitter account for the Cowpens National Battlefield. And if none of those digital outlets work for you, or you can't come physically to the battlefield, send us a letter and ask for some information and we'll be happy to mail it to you with the United States Postal Service.

Adrian: Are there any books that people could maybe read to learn more; really good ones you would suggest?

Paul: Uh, they are some really good books. One of the main go-tos that the staff uses here at Cowpens is Doctor Lawrence Babits, “A Devil of a Whipping,” that is one of the main go-tos. Another good option is Buchanan’s “The Road to Guilford Courthouse” that begins with the Battle of Cowpens and follows up with what we talked about a little bit earlier that race to the Dan River between Cornwallis and Nathanael Greene. That is two really good resources, really good books. There are also biographies on Daniel Morgan and a really new scholarship, a good one, by an author named John Knight on Banastre Tarleton and the British Legion called “War at Saber Point” as well if you want to get a little bit more into the personalities. Good stuff.

Adrian: Awesome.

[Violin music]

William: Well, thank you so much, Paul. I really appreciate your time here discussing with us and all of our listeners, one of the quicker but very important battles of the Southern Theater, and that is going to conclude another episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. To learn more about the American Revolution, our home National Park sites for Ranger Paul, you can check out www.nps.gov/COWP, for Ranger Adrian and Ninety Six National Historic site head to nps.gov/NISI, and for myself, Ranger William and the Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail, nps.gov/OVVI. So thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and we'll see you next time we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: Bye.

Paul: Thank y'all. (musket shot)

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

[Intro sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swards, and men fighting]

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site.

William: And together we will get into some of the known and not so known stories about the American Revolution here in the South. Let's dive into it.

[sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swards, and men fighting]

William: So today we are joined with our special guest Jason Baum from Guilford Courthouse National Military Park. Jason, thanks for joining us.

Jason: Well, thanks for having me. I was excited when you guys told me about this project.

William: Absolutely. Before we get too much into the details about Guilford Courthouse and this amazing battle of the American Revolution, let's talk about you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your connection with this topic?

Jason: So yeah, so my journey into the world of being a Park Ranger starts way back when I got a history degree at Ohio University. And then from there I spent four years in the Army as an intelligence officer and I bring that up because to me, those same skills are what any historian needs, which is the ability to take a bunch of different information, bring it all together and try and understand what the coherent picture is from all those details. So after I spent about four years in the Army, I then came to Greensboro, North Carolina, not specifically for Guildford, originally I came here to go to grad school at UNC Greensboro. I got a degree in Museum Studies and then while I was doing that, that's when I started as an intern at Guilford Courthouse. And then I was lucky enough to turn the internship into a seasonal Ranger position. And then I had the dumbest luck in the world when I turned that seasonal Ranger position into a permanent position and I have been here at Guildford for going on 8 1/2 years now.

Adrian: Awesome.

William: You caught the Unicorn, my friend.

Jason: I did. I really did.

Adrian: Well, that's great. So you said, sounds like you're still in Greensboro, for the listeners that don't know, can you tell us where’s Greensboro? Was it called Greensboro at the time that the battle took place? If not, what's it called?

Jason: Ohh yeah, so Greensboro is in the central Piedmont area of North Carolina. So when we talk about the Piedmont, if you were to divide North Carolina into thirds, we were in the upper part of the middle third of North Carolina and Greensboro wasn't founded until the 19th century. So if you were to be here on the day of battle, March 15th, 1781, it would have been very sparsely populated and the county we are in Guilford County was brand new. It had only been created back in 1771 and it was much larger than it is today, and so the whole reason this place is even here, the reason we know about it is, as you can imagine, the name Guilford Courthouse is because the original County Courthouse was originally put in this area. Eventually it will get moved in the 19th century and that will is what will lead to the founding of Greenesboro. And so today, we're the park is is if you were to come visit the city of Greenesboro, Guilford Courthouse National Military Park is in the northwest kind of corner of the suburbs. Uh, we have an outer belt around the city, so you can almost imagine like a giant clock face. If the center of the city, is the middle of the clock, we're up around the 11:00 o'clock part of the clock face.

William: Do we know who Guilford County was named after?

Jason: The Earl of Guilford. And so it's funny that it was named for the first Earl of Guilford. But the ironic thing is that the Prime Minister during the war, Lord North, he would eventually become the next Earl of Guilford.

William: So not named after Lord North, thankfully, we're going to avoid that one.

Jason: Yeah.

William: So we're talking about this, you mentioned that the Battle of Guilford Courthouse is going to take place March 15th, 1781. Before we get into the nitty gritty of the actual battle itself, can you set the scene for us? What is going to be leading up to the battle? What is bringing these armies into a part of North Carolina where it sounds like there's not any key features that they're gonna be fighting over? And then who are some of the players on the board bringing their armies to the field?

Jason: So I always tell people the battle of Guilford Courthouse or the Guilford Courthouse campaign starts because of the Battle of Cowpens. It starts the day afterwards, so basically day after Cornwallis now has to figure out what to do now that a huge chunk of all his light troops have just been killed, wounded or captured, and so very quickly, he has reinforcements who are already on their way up to him, who are going to meet him up in northwest South Carolina and he decides to launch after Daniel Morgan's troops. Daniel Morgan would be the American commander in charge of the wing that had just been at Cowpens, and initially the idea was Cornwallis is gonna lunge after him, and at the very least maybe he would free his prisoners from Cowpens. Or at maybe you know, things go his way, he catches Morgan's troops and crushes them, which is the what they were trying to do at Cowpens. He goes after him, he falls behind very quickly and Morgan gets away and he will get across the Catawba River. And while that's happening Cornwallis has to decide what he’s going to do because he had wanted to invade North Carolina at the end of 1780 but had had to the pull back because mainly of camp sickness running through his army but he'd also met stiff militia resistance around Charlotte. So what he's gonna do is he's gonna decide to keep going. He's gonna burn his excess baggage and wagons. So he's not burning everything, but they're burning all the nonessential baggage and they're burning several wagons, but they do keep a few. They have just enough wagons with them that they will be able to carry salt because in that time, if you've got, you found any food or you foraged for food, the way you preserve things like meats with salt, you would keep another wagon to carry your ammunition, and you kept a couple of wagons to carry any wounded you might incur along the campaign. So with that in mind, corn loss is burning the excess baggage and wagons to lighten up his army. So hopefully he can catch the Americans, and he's gonna spend the next several weeks, January, February and early March chasing Greene around North Carolina trying to get him to stop trying to get him to turn and fight him so he can finally crush him. And failing to get him to do so. We call it the race to the Dan as one section of it, because Greene is going to get his army all the way up to Virginia, crossed the Dan River, and when Cornwallis finally catches up to him, he sees that the river is swollen from winter rains and all the boats are on the other side of the river, and so he can't get after him. So at that point, Cornwallis comes back into North Carolina. He goes to Hillsborough and he reassesses what's his options are. He didn't free his prisoners from Cowpens. He didn't get the Americans to stop and fight him, so he couldn't destroy that army. Well then something else he could possibly do is recruit Loyalists because I mean, that's one of the major motivators for them coming down to the South to begin with; recruit Loyalists to kind of bulk up your army since you have to send more men and more ships to go fight the French once they join the war. So Cornwallis goes to Hillsborough. He raises the King’s standard and tons of people come into town. They say thank God you're here. we're still happy to see you and then they go home. The recruits and the supplies do not materialize that Cornwallis was hoping for. Meanwhile, Greene knows he can't just let Cornwallis sit in North Carolina uncontested. So Greene comes back down and he sends ahead Andrew Pickens and Lighthorse Harry Lee to harass and keep an eye on Cornwallis’s army. And there's gonna be an event called Pyles Massacre that happens. Pyle’s also, sometimes called Pyle’s Hacking Match, and basically what happens was that there was a body of Loyalist who are trying to come in trying to meet Cornwallis, and in the process of coming in they knew they were supposed to meet Banastre Tarleton, the British cavalry commander, meet his cavalry to be escorted in. But they run into Lighthorse Harry Lee's troops, and Lee's troops wears uniforms that are similar in color to Tarleton. The idea what we understand is that Lee was hoping to capture the men, but in the process of coming alongside them, they actually greeted them and we're coming alongside each other in a very narrow road in the woods. Somebody discovered who the other side was and once that happens Lee’s troopers pull out their swords and proceed to chase down a lot of the Loyalists into the woods, hacking them down. That's why it's called Pyles Hacking Match. But events like that, along with the fact that you could look back at battles like Kings Mountain where Ferguson's entire troop force was wiped out, things like Kings Mountain, things like Pyle’s massacre, are going to pretty much kill any hopes for the British to recruit lots of Loyalists while they're here in North Carolina. That being said, the chase again begins once Greene has come back into North Carolina. Cornwallis is gonna again start pursuing him, now they are in the eastern part of the state, coming back West towards Guilford Courthouse and Greene is finally going to turn and stop the fight him because what has happened is that up to this point, both armies have been similar in size. But in early March, Greene finally gets a massive influx of reinforcements. Lots of militia. And so almost overnight his army doubles in size. And so he's gonna have 4,400 men while the British are have about 2,100 men at this point. And with that huge advantage, Greene's gonna have confidence to find a turn and fight the British. And he comes back to Guilford Courthouse because he knows the terrain. They've been through here before. They passed through on the initial race to the Dan, so Greene’s coming back to a place he knows, he's coming back with way more troops than the British have, and that's really what's motivating him to finally stop running and to finally turn and fight the British.

Adrian: Talk about being outnumbered.

William: Awesome. So I wanna circle back real quick, and some of the things that you were mentioning, this decision to launch headlong in pursuit of the American Army, Cornwallis reinforced with this group from that's just marched up from Charleston; how much do we know, are there any fun tidbits you wanna tell us about this decision about burning the supplies? And do we know where that took place today? Jason: It took place at a place called Ramseur's Mill. It would have been to the West of where modern-day Charlotte is and what we do know about it is that the officers of his army also made a big show of making sure everybody saw them throwing their own unnecessary baggage into the fires It was meant to really show that this is a sacrifice, but everybody is making this sacrifice. And what we are about to do is do a very hard campaign to try and catch this rebel army.

William: Awesome. And talking about Pyle’s Massacre and the hacking match, I read somewhere that there was actually another incident with Loyalist militia shortly following Pyle’s Massacre that even more destroyed the Loyalist support of the British Army. Is that right?

Jason: Yes, yes, similar. Something similar happens where Loyalist forces it's, if I remember correctly, it's a slightly smaller body, but they're also trying to come meet Cornwallis. Tarleton was sent to meet them and this time they meet Tarleton, but Tarleton doesn't realize who they are, and he accidentally attacks the Loyalists and doesn't realize his mistake until it's too late.

William: Geez, so you're looking at two instances of Loyalist militia totally being destroyed, one by a, I don't want to call it a feint, one by a disguised, I guess that’s not the right word either.

Jason: I guess it’s like, it's like I guess you could say a ruse, a a trick.

William: Ruse! That's the word. Thank you. One group destroyed by this ruse by Patriot cavalry. This other group destroyed by a mistake by Loyalist cavalry. I can see that where that would greatly destroy any hope of the local people wanting to step up and go with the British Army when they're not even sure what's going on.

Adrian: Alright, Jason, so we've got the buildup, what actually happens at Guildford Courthouse?

Jason: So Greene's army is gonna come to the site that is today Guilford Courthouse, National Military Park. And he's gonna come here on March 14th and then on the morning of March 15th, he sends out cavalry to keep tabs on what the British are up to. They are 12 miles away at a Quaker meeting house on the Deep River. It's about southwest of modern-day Greensboro. And what they report early in the morning around 5:00 AM is that the British are up and moving around and then they start reporting that the troops are clearly getting ready to go somewhere. And once that happens, Lee is gonna go out even closer to where his pickets are to figure out what the British are actually up to. Because again, they're not trying to start the battle anywhere. What they're trying to make sure is where the British going, is it the entire British Army on the road? And so what's gonna happen is around sometime between 8:00 and 9:00 AM on March 15th it’s going to be the first fighting of the day. It's gonna be three short, sharp little skirmishes around what was another Quaker area called Newgarden Meetinghouse. Today it's about four miles away from the park. The Quaker society still exists there today and on the other side of the road from where they are, there's now Guilford College out there. But what happens on the morning is that first it's gonna be the cavalry versus cavalry. Tarleton’s cavalry is gonna pursue Lee's men up the road. Lee's gonna turn on them when they bait them down a narrow strip of lane and fire on them and counterattacke when they are bunched up in the lane and can't expand their cavalry out into a proper formation. And they drive Tarleton back. The next clash of the morning will be that then Lee pushes back down the road and runs into the Light Infantry and advanced infantry units of the British Army gets fired on and then he falls back, and then the last little clash of the morning will be the Light Infantry of both sides exchanging shots before the Americans finally pulled back because again, they're not trying to start the battle down there. They just want to see what the British are doing and after those little clashes they can confirm the entire British Army is on the road and is heading towards Guildford Courthouse. So they're going to retrieve all the way back.

William: Now, do we know, do we know how much time is taking place between these different clashes or are they pretty like back-to-back, one is slowly bleeding into the next?

Jason: They should be, uh, we believe they're probably back-to-back, very happening one after the other.

William: Wow.

Adrian: Okay.

Jason: So then all those troops come back to the main army here around the courthouse or report to Greene what's happening, and Greene starts deploying his men into three lines. Now he puts them into three lines, it's a very similar formation as to what you would see at Cowpens, but on a much larger scale. And the idea comes from Daniel Morgan because Daniel Morgan encouraged Greene to use militia to what they are capable of. Most these guys have no combat experience. A lot of them don't have proper training. They bring their own weapons and equipment from home, so many of them don't even have bayonets. So the idea is that don't treat them like regulars. Don't put them out somewhere and expect them to stop the British Army. Let them shoot shots. Let them cause casualties. Let them cause chaos. Then let them fall back and get out of the way. So Greene’s decided to do that by putting a first line of North Carolina militia close to the Hoskins farm, which is on the western part of the battlefield. So these guys are stationed along open farm fields where they can see the British deploying and coming. Uh, about 400 yards east of them in the dense woods is going to be the second line of militia made up of men from Virginia. And then the third line, another 800 yards east of them around the courthouse itself is where Greene is gonna station himself with his Continentals. And idea again is that if the first two lines are just supposed to fight a little bit but then fall back, the main effort will be the Continentals. Greene’s hope is that as the British are pushing through one line after another, as they’re having to fight through way through dense woods, hopefully they will be so badly beaten up and so badly disorganized by the time they get to him and his Continentals at the courthouse, maybe they can destroy the British with that main effort at the third line.

Adrian: Just out of curiosity, how many militia are there?

Jason: On the first and, first and second line, we think there's about 1,000 to 1,200 militia on each of those lines.

William: Geez!

Adrian: And where are they from? Do we know?

Jason: So the first line is North Carolina, mostly men of central and a little bit to the east in North Carolina, eastern North Carolina. Not, not a lot of men were pulled from the east because there's already British troops in Wilmington, so a lot of them are being pulled down there to deal with that threat. But we all, amongst the many units that are here are even the Guildford militia, this county, its own militia, are one of the many units that are going to be stationed at the first line, waiting at the Hoskins Farm.

William: And then I know, as far as talking about where they’re coming from, Adrian, I know regarding some of our Overmountain guys or Kings Mountain guys, Benjamin Cleveland and his militia from, you know, Wilkes County, western edge of North Carolina, they're in the area but they were more harassing the other region and keeping support from getting to Cornwallis. So I don't think you have a lot of like westerners there.

Jason: Correct.

Adrian: Well, you said Pickens was there, right?

Jason: Pickens had been there during the campaign, but the funny thing is that Pickens is gonna be sent away a couple weeks before the battle with South Carolina and Georgia militia because of what happens at a small skirmish called Wetzell’s Mill. At Wetzell's Mill, what happens is that Cornwallis, again trying to find the Americans trying to get them to turn off item, catches the American army off guard and pursues them, but in the process the militia are made to delay the British forces as the Continentals can get away across a stream. The South Carolina and Georgia militia felt they were being sacrificed to try and let the Continentals get away. And apparently they were in such bad humor, Greene felt the only solution was to let Pickens take them back home to rest, resupply, and then once they're down there, maybe they can get back to harassing British outposts and British supply lines.

Adrian: OK, cool.

William: Well, and this is Pickens and those same militia that had escorted, you know, fought at Cowpens, escorted the prisoners through North Carolina to the Virginia border, and now have returned from the Virginia border, they haven't been home since mid-January and now here they are in mid-March, or you know early mid-March with Wetzell's Mill. I can see why you've got some real hurt feelings here. Very sensitive issue.

Jason: Absolutely.

Adrian: I think it worked since they joined back up for the Battle of Augusta and Ninety Six so.

Jason: So we've established Greene’s using three defensive lines. What he's trying to accomplish with that? Who is at each defensive line? The British are gonna arrive on the battlefield sometime between anywhere between 11 and noon. And I mean, that's one of the many funny things about this era is that we can't always pinpoint the time things are happening because not everybody's carrying a watch around. Not everybody's consulting a watch. More often you will see somebody reference where the sun is in the sky, than you will see them reference a specific time. So we're we think at some time between 11 and noon and the British are showing up at what is now the western part of the park as they come near the Hoskins Farm. And waiting on them at the first line amongst the North Carolina militia are also two 6-pounder guns, two bronze 6-pounder guns. Artillery in this era is classified by the weight of the shot it throws. And when they see the British coming down the road, they start firing at the British, who are a perfect target at that point because at that point you have a dense column of men stacked up one behind the other. And in this era, you're not shooting shells that explode. You're shooting a solid ball on a flat trajectory. So what you want it to do is to go through several human beings, hit the ground, skip back up, go through several more human beings, and a bunch of guys stacked up down the roads is the perfect target. So the British do the smart thing and immediately start deploying off to the sides of the road to get out of the way. They bring up their own artillery to start countering, and really the first 20 minutes of the Battle of Guilford Courthouse is an artillery duel. British artillery and American artillery firing back and forth at each other about four or 500 yards away, as the British get deployed into their long lines.

Adrian: Do we know what size the British artillery is?

Jason: That is an interesting one because some historians think that they probably would have brought their 6’s up because if you're being fired at with a good size artillery, you'd wanna counter with something similar. But Tarleton in his memoirs says that he says the 3-pounders are brought up to fire.

Adrian: Okay.

Jason: And that also would make sense because 3-pounders are lighter, they’re more maneuverable, so they might be up at the head of your column. And then the last little kind of twist is that the one map we have made by people who are here, sometimes it's called the Haldane map as the original. Most people, if you've seen a map of Guilford Courthouse, you've seen what we call the Tarleton map. It's the Haldane map made by an engineer and then kind of spruced up so it could be put into a book. And if you look very closely at the bottom of that map near the Hoskins Farm, you can see the representation of three guns in the road that area. So I me I think Tarleton probably has it right in that if there are three guns down there, then it would make sense there might be two 3’s and they brought up a 6 to help support as well.

William: So we’re blasting away we’re thundering away with solid shots, skipping hundreds of yards across the field. When does, when is the step off?

Jason: So it's probably around 12:30 and this British Army that's about to step off is also very hungry. They didn't, they ran out of food for everybody that day before. Because the thing about this long campaign these weeks that it took to get here, they, when they at the same time they're burning their baggage and wagons, they're having to detach from any logistics chains. Now in the 18th century, any army going on a campaign, you wouldn't have the ability to ship everything you need from behind in wagons. You would need to forage, which is when you're taking from the local countryside. Whether you're just stealing it or whether you're purchasing it to help feed your army. That's been a major problem because this is, you know, winter, this is the middle of winter. So not much is growing. Anything that's been preserved for the winter has likely mostly been consumed already. And then an added problem for the British is that if you are chasing an entire American army around everywhere you go, they're getting to the food first. So after weeks of this, you now have a British Army who has been marching about 16 miles a day, six days a week and has run out of food. They arrive here and they know they have 2,100 troops, but they're only bringing 1,900. They leave 200 Loyalists, North Carolina troops, behind as baggage guards. They don't know exactly how big the American army is. The American Army, as I said, is 4,400, the British have estimates of anything between 7 to 8,000. So they think they're outnumbered three to one, and yet they have such confidence in their ability and they have such a low opinion of American militia that despite the fact that they are worn out ,despite the fact that they are hungry, despite the fact that they think they are outnumbered three to one, they are going to attack forward with the hope of driving the American army off the battlefield and destroying it.

William: God save the king!

Jason: And so at 12:30 on the day of battle, the British are deployed into their long lines at the Hoskins Farm, and they're gonna push forward towards the American first line of North Carolina militia to actually start the main portion of the battle. So we now have the British walking across open farm fields. Some of them are in the woods cause these farm fields aren't big enough to host the entire British force. If you can imagine being North Carolina militiamen, you've never been in a battle before, and 400 yards away across this open field, you can see the British Army deploy and then come closer and closer. But because you're all using smoothbore weapons, you can't do anything about it. You have to wait till they get within 100 yards before you can actually have a hope of hitting something. So the British approach to about within 60 yards and then the North Carolina line's gonna erupt with their volley. And we have two guys at the front line, one man who's with the 71st Highlanders, another man who's with a Hessian unit, the Regiment von Bose. And essentially what both of them say, they both describe it as though half of their units are being killed with the first volley now. That's not what happens. They both take horrible casualties in this battle, but neither unit loses 50% and neither of them are losing it with that first shot. However, what that tells us, though, is just how intense that volley must have been, because both of the witnesses that tell us this, they had been in several battles before and they had fought in the Seven Years War as well. So this is not the first time they've ever been under fire, and yet that's the experience they had from the first shot that they received. The British quickly recovered their composure, fire at the Americans and then proceed to charge in immediately because again, they don't wanna get into a prolonged firefight. They don't have any confidence that the Americans can stand up to them. So just fire at them once, charge them with the bayonets, and make the cowards run away. As they go charging in Greene’s plan starts to work and starts to fail in different ways. The way it fails is that the first line was supposed to fire two shots, but most of the middle of that North Carolina line only fires once. We have accounts of guys at the end of the line firing four or five, six shots. So that's one way it fails, it gives away a little sooner than I was supposed to. The success, however, is that it is causing chaos. Because if the center is disintegrating, that means the British units that are in the center along the New Garden Road, which would have been the road that ran through the battlefield, can now proceed forward without anybody stopping them. But as you go farther out to the ends of the British lines into the woods, those guys are slower because they're meeting more resistance. And then one last little thing that happens is that on the South end of the first line, if you look at any maps of Guilford Courthouse, you'll see the open fields, then you'll see a separate little farm field down there as well. As the Hessians came to that field, they were getting shot at in the flank. So an additional unit from the British reserve is sent to go push that threat away, and as they push that threat away, they follow it off to the southeast, away from the main effort on the New Garden Road. So the British have essentially cracked the first line, but already they have units getting ahead of their units to their left and right because they're meeting different levels of resistance. And now we have one unit wandering away to the southeast as it tries to pursue the threat that's in the woods. So now they keep going forward. They're gonna have to go 400 yards until they find the second line again. Something to keep in mind is that the British don't know if there is a second or third line. They know the Americans outnumber them, but when you arrive at the Hoskins Farm, you can only see what's across the farm fields at you. You can maybe see 1,000 guys. So that again, that's how confident they are that they can defeat this American army. How desperate they are to have a big battle. They push through the woods and they finally meet the American second line. And a similar thing is gonna happen here, where the lines gonna give away sooner than it was supposed to. Essentially what happens is that on the both the northern end of the American Virginia line of Virginia militia and the southern end of the line, you have these independent units decide they think they know what's coming. They think they see isolated British units coming to the woods and so they moved their men out of line to try and exploit what they think is an opportunity to destroy a British unit. In both cases, they quickly realized that there were more troops coming through the woods. On the north side you have whole sections of men flee the battlefield when they suddenly find British troops coming around their flank, one quote that's famous for this battle is Major St. George Tucker describes it as “a bunch of sheep scared by dogs” as the way he describes his own men. So just like that, you have a giant hole punched on the North end of the line. Meanwhile, in the southern end of line, you have a another case of mistaken identity. Almost in a similar way, you had mistaken identity with Pyle’s Massacre. What you have is Virginia militia who swung out a line. They saw the red-coated unit that was wandering away to the southeast and they proceeded to attack them and they get in their own little mini battle and the next thing they know is that marching through the woods is a blue-coated unit. And so I'll ask both of you, who typically wears blue coats?

Adrian: Normally the Continentals.

William: The Continental army!

Jason: Exactly. And if you are a militiaman who's only been with the army for about a week, you know, you know Maryland troops, Virginia troops of the Continental line where blue. So these guys see them come and they start cheering at them. They start cheering liberty at them.

William: Oh no.

Jason: They think, oh, we've got this British unit pinned and these guys are gonna swipe them off the battlefield. What they don't realize is that the Regiment von Bose, the Hessians, also wear blue coats.

William: Oh no!

Jason: The Hessians March right up to them and blast them in the flank. Adrian: Ohh!

Jason: And so the second line is finally going to give away when one last unit under General Edward Stevens finally gets it's, his men hold out the longest, and it's when Stevens himself gets wounded that they finally gives the order to fall back. So at this point the second line gets broken. It finally dissolves. But yet at this point the British have now lost all cohesion. So as these different units have given away at different time periods and with different levels of resistance, the British Army has at this point pretty much devolved into individual units spearheading their way through the woods, having their own little independent battles. So while the majority of the British Army continues to the east along the New Garden Road towards Greene’s Continental line around the courthouse to the southeast, that one British unit will now be joined by the Hessians, who saved them. And now you have two units wandering away to the southeast, a full third of Cornwallis’s combat power is now wandering away from his main effort. And so the the climax of the battle is gonna be the third line. And so if we have British units coming through the woods on their own, the first unit that will appear is the 33rd Regiment of Foot. They go to attack the American third line because they think they see artillery unsupported, but as they approach the American third line would be across open fields that are near the courthouse and are up a hill. If you go out there today, it's unfortunately wooded, it was allowed to grow up during the 20th century, but for the British they would be, essentially it's almost like a ravine, they'd appear on one end of the ravine. It'd be a clear ground. And then on the other side of the ravine is where more woods we would continue and that's where the Continentals are at the first British unit derived, the 33rd gets down into that low ground and it's then they realize they've made a mistake: It's not unsupported artillery, there's an entire line of infantry there and they get blasted from three sides. Artillery straight on, Virginia Continentals to their left, first Maryland Continentals to their right. They get smashed and go right back up the rise that they just came down. And so it seems like Greene’s plan is now working perfectly. It's exactly what he wanted. No sooner had those guys get repelled though, then the next unit appears. It's gonna be the 2nd Guards. The Guards units were elite units, very experienced in the British Army and they are gonna come up the New Garden Road. And they're gonna attack immediately across the open ground. And the thing about who they're attacking is they are attacking the 2nd Maryland. So, 2nd Maryland is a Continental unit, so they're professionals. They're well trained, well equipped. The problem was that this was the first time they've ever been in the battle before and they were in an awkward position. Instead of being in a straight line, you almost imagine they're line being like an L shape. The left flank was refused because again, if you look at any map of the battlefield, you had a bunch of open ground around the courthouse area, so they had to cover one section of open ground and then facing to their South they had a refused flank looking at all that open ground down there. So when the 2nd Guards appears they now need that entire line to swing back so that they're all facing the same direction and they can fire all their muskets at the oncoming Guards. As they try and swing their left flank down confusion ensues because at one point of the line, it's even a kind of hard to discern when you look at the sources, It seems like as the left flank is kind of swinging down so they can have everybody online together, the right flank seems to think that they're advancing, so they start to push forward and they have to be told to stop. And as they are doing all these maneuvers, the Guards are coming on, shooting at them, about to charge. 2nd Maryland fires one weak volley gets charged by the guards and shatters. And just like that, the left flank of the Continental line has completely disappeared. The guards now go to sweep up, they sweep over the artillery on that end of the line, they're going near the courthouse area, which is where Greene and his staff would have been, forcing them to flee. And as they're doing that, what's going to help save the day is that cavalry is going to come in, led by William Washington. So throughout the entirety of this battle, on both flanks of the American Army, we've had Lighthorse Harry Lee, who we talked about skirmishing in the morning, he is on the south end of the line, going back from the first line to the second line and then back into the separate fight. On the north side, William Washington's men have been up there, they've also had riflemen with them, and they go back and when he gets back to the third line, he's looking down the road and he can see the Guards attack, shatter 2nd Maryland and start swinging up. So William Washington leads his troopers in a charge and they hit the 2nd Guards and stopped them in their tracks. And that's just enough time for 1st Maryland to turn around because they, since they had attacked the 33rd Guards to the north, they now pretty much need to do an about-face to face in the correct direction to hit the Guards, and they're gonna march right up to them, they're gonna fire at each other at point blank range, one witness who was in the area, who was at the courthouse, the way he describes it is that it looked as though they were so close that the flashes of their muzzles were touching when they fired at each other, and then they're gonna charge and just like that you're gonna have a giant melee of about four or 500 guys fighting each other hand to hand. So the next thing that, the next twist in the story that happens, is that coming up to the opening around the courthouse on the West side of the open ground would be Charles Cornwallis, the British commander and his 3-pounders. So when he arrives on the scene, he sees his men in hand to hand fighting with 1st Maryland across the open ground and in the ground between them he has American cavalry. So what he's going to do is he's gonna take his 3-pounders, he's gonna have them fire grapeshot to disperse that cavalry because that cavalry could either attack his men again, or they could just easily turn and attack him and his artillery. And when he does that, that's actually a big myth that we have for this battle. The big myth surrounding this battle is that when Cornwallis chooses to do this, what he's actually doing is that he's firing his grapeshot into the mass of infantry because he is so desperate for a victory, he doesn't care if he kills his own men. The reality is that he is trying to disperse that cavalry, but in the process he's using grapeshot. Grapeshot is when you put instead of one iron ball into the cannon, one solid shot, you're putting a bag of iron balls about the size of golf balls. It's called grapeshot because when you see this package, it looks like a bag of grapes. And so when you fire it, you're turning your cannon into a giant shotgun and at about 100 yards that stuff spreads out to about a 10-yard wide cone of iron flying through the air. So if you have two guns doing that side by side, the way I describe it is that you're essentially throwing a wall of iron the size of a house through the air. He fires it. He hits the calvary. It disperses the cavalry, but a lot of that, a lot of those munitions are going to carry through and accidentally hit some of his own men, as well as some of the 1st Maryland. That's gonna get the American army, two infantry units, to pull apart. 2nd Guards retreats, 1st Maryland starts retreating and Greene is getting his army off the battlefield at this point, because once 2nd Maryland got overran, he was afraid of getting all of his Continentals destroyed. And when he came down in December of 1780, when he got command in the South, one thing that was established was that Washington made it very clear to him that he needed to preserve his Continentals. Militia have short terms of duty. Not all militia companies are great. Some have better training than others, so you can't always rely on them. But if you have a core of Continentals, you always have something to build around. So with that in mind, Greene was determined to get his Continentals off the field intact. So now the American army’s in full flight, they’re heading 12 miles north to the, their preestablished campsite at Troublesome Creek, and the British are gonna pursue them just for a short while. They get up the road, they take one volley from a a Virginia unit that really hadn't been heavily engaged, and they stopped the pursuit. They're going to start gathering on the courthouse. But that's not the end of the battle, because around the time this is happening, they're still hearing heavy firing going on somewhere to the South. If everybody remembers we had a one British unit, the 1st Guards, and the Hessians Regiment von Bose wandering away to the South. Cornwallis doesn't know this. Cornwallis doesn't know what the sound of the fighting is, so he sends Tarleton's calvary to go figure out what it is. They head about 1/2 mile to the South, and there they find those two units nearly surrounded by riflemen, light infantrymen, and militia. So when Tarleton arrives, he makes contact with the infantry and the plan is that they will fire a grand volley and once they fire their volley, he'll come charging in with this calvary to disperse them. Now what he's going to be aided by in this is that Lighthorse Harry Lee, who had also been down there with calvary, unfortunately, had left just before Tarleton arrived. Because what Lee did was he heard the fighting around the courthouse and went to investigate. Unfortunately, leaving those militiamen uncovered. So the two units fire, Tarleton charges in and he disperses the militia, and that's what actually ends the fighting at Guilford Courthouse. After 2 1/2 hour battle, the Americans are on a retreat to the north, the British are gonna start consolidating around the courthouse site to decide what has happened and what has been achieved.

William: So this this clash at the end of the battle to the southeast, separate from the main fight, is this where Banastre Tarleton is famously wounded?

Jason: Possibly we think so. The more reliable source on that is the, there's a Hessian major who says in his memoirs that that is where Tarleton is wounded. There is another story I don't even know the full details of it, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but there's some story about a family near the Quaker meeting house in the morning skirmish allegedly helping to patch up a wounded British officers hand, but again, the details are so vague that I've always, I've always leaned on the idea that the Hessian clearly saying Tarleton was wounded at the end fight, that's what I believe it is.

William: Especially if that's where his regiment was in the southeastern little detached fight being there to see it. And I had one other question about that part and actually about that, that regiment, the Regiment von Bose. I'd heard a story about their engaging in those thick woods and a wildland fire. Is this correct?

Jason: Yes. There is an account. There is a soldier who says that, and again one of the difficulties about studying history and trying to piece what happens is that that is also the only person who says anything like that. I don't see in the sources anybody else mentioning one, so to me that says at the very least if there is a fire starting, it must not be too huge.

William: So as a former Army Intelligence guy, how aggravating is it to have these incomplete spotty documents?

Jason: It's, it's, it is extremely frustrating. That's why I think sometimes we have to rely on, I don't know what's called, like experimental, basically the idea is that if you want to try and figure out any details missing, that's when you guys start being like, alright, well, how many men do they have? How wide does each man in a file? How fast do they march? And then that's where you have to start trying to like mathematically like piece together how fast they're moving through areas to try and, especially with like things like the second line. That is difficult because you have these distinct different things happening at different sections of the line but there really is very little way to tell what happens first.

William: So Jason, that was an amazing walkthrough of the of the battle, of the intricacies, you referenced the Battle of Cowpens a few times and looking at some of the similarities, but also some of the major differences, you're looking at this massive 2 1/2 hour fight, hundreds of yards several hundred yards between the lines, and now the British hold the field. Now, Greene has achieved his mission of preserving his Continentals, saving them that core of the army that you were talking about. What is gonna be the the aftermath? You have the British holding the field, but what is kind of the immediate next steps for both sides? But then also where do we see the ripples through the rest of the campaign, even the rest of the war? What ripples do we see because of what's happened here at the courthouse? Jason: Yes. So, so the immediate aftermath is that Cornwallis holds the field. Greene sends surgeons and some additional personnel to help treat the wounded. Both sides are agreeing to help treat the wounded. Wounded are gonna be treated at the Quaker meeting house at New Garden, and Cornwallis is only gonna stay for a couple of days. Again, he's run out of food for everybody, so he now has to get to his resupply point. And so after a couple days, he issues a proclamation about how great his victory was and proceeds to head towards Wilmington, 180 miles away. Now he didn't wanna go this far because when the campaign started, they had sent a unit into Wilmington and the idea was they would come up the Cape Fear River and extend the supply lines. For anybody who's unfamiliar with North Carolina, Fayetteville, which is the area of Fort Liberty, formerly Fort Bragg, is up on the Cape Fear River. Cornwallis is hoping that that river would be where his supply line would be, extending up to meet him, but the British unit in Wilmington was never able to get out because of the North Carolina militia were too uh, were harassing them too much. They couldn't establish a foothold outside. So Cornwallis has to go all the way to meet them now. Greene pursues him to the Cape Fear River, but then does not go all the way to Wilmington. Partly because he doesn't want to pursue him close to the coast, because the closer you get to the coast, the more inlets and rivers you have, so the defensible terrain will more and more heavily favor Cornwallis. So Greene decides to go down into South Carolina instead. And so what these two guys are now have to decide is what's the next step? What do we wanna do? And they almost have very similar ideas. The idea is that they want the other guy to chase them, so Greene wants Cornwallis to come back down into South Carolina because he thinks that would free up Virginia and North Carolina to send him men and troops. Cornwallis wants Greene to follow him up into Virginia, thinking that that will free up Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina to be pacified. Neither guys follows the other. Greene's gonna head down towards the British outpost near Camden, and Cornwallis is gonna head up the North Carolina coast into Virginia, where he's hoping to meet up with British troops who are already present in the Chesapeake area.

Adrian: Cat and mouse.

Jason: Exactly.

William: I'm I'm actually reminded of when I was teaching my kid how to play tag and they weren't quite getting it like “I'm it come chase me” and like, “no, I’m it come chase me too!” It's like, no, that's not how this works.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Oh that's great. So you got both sides just kind of going their separate ways. Almost like Cornwallis “I won. It was a victory. Bye.”

Jason: Yep.

William: When you're trying to win the hearts and minds of people, like you were saying, not only do you have all these other challenges and these issues from Pyle’s Massacre and from the missing the mistaken identity, but now you've had this major battle, and it's a British victory, but you got to think when you have such an amount of casualties, you described how there are surgeons from both sides being sent. Do we know the number or at least the estimates for each side that are left there at the Quaker meeting house?

Jason: Umm, we don't have exact numbers for who is left at the meeting house, but in terms of uh, just general casualties, the Americans lose over 300 men. The British lose over 500 men and which for them again, being the smaller force, over 500 men is about 28% of Cornwallis’s force is gone with one battle.

Adrian: You can't, can't win a war that way.

Jason: Exactly.

Adrian: So you've already kind of hit on one myth with the whole Cornwallis firing grapeshot into the melee and just not caring about taking out his own men. But are there any other myths or misconceptions that you wanna try to set straight?

Jason: One that is not so much specific to Guilford Courthouse was one that we still talk to folks about a lot today is the idea that the British didn't know how to fight in the woods and just were, there's still this existing myth that, you know, the plucky American rifleman hiding behind trees and walls was shooting down these long lines of British soldiers who just didn't, could not comprehend fighting in uh, you know, scattered formations. And the thing I like to always bring up is that first of all, we gotta remember which war happened before this. We had the French and Indian War, so the British have a huge war in North America and there they are learning how to fight against Native Americans. How to fight alongside Native Americans. They are creating Ranger units. They are creating Light Infantry units. And so they're they are getting those ideas already so that by the time we get to the American Revolution, you have soldiers who are writing manuals on Light Infantry tactics. So the British understood how to fight in the woods. And the same sense the, you know, the American army isn't just a bunch of riflemen. They have Continentals. Continentals are fighting exactly the same way the British redcoat would have: dense lines, smooth bores, bayonets. And so when we think of combat, we gotta think of both units having those kind of standard line infantry units, both armies are using riflemen, both armies know how to use open order, which is another thing to think of is that we sometimes conceptualized the British marching around shoulder to shoulder at all times. It's likely that down here in the South, we would have seen them using open order, which is basically instead of having guys shoulder to shoulder, you'd be able to about, you know, kind of raise one arm and have enough space to just barely touch the shoulder of the guy next to you. So you have gaps in between each file, which makes it easier to push a line of infantry through dense woods and stuff like that.

William: And now on that topic, isn't isn't there an account from this battle of British troops engaging in a firefight with the third line from the prone position?

Jason: That I think that would have been that would have been the 33rd after they get smashed and go back, they do go up onto a rise and continue to fire at the Americans yeah. Also, up on the north side of that battlefield, that's also where you would have some British Light Infantry and also another Hessian unit of jaegers. So those are German riflemen.

William: Yeah. Talk more about them!

Jason: So yeah, uh jaeger, it translates to hunter in German, but those guys are, you know, they're carrying rifles. So the inside of the of the weapon’s bore is rifled, has a groove that will spin the ball, give it an accurate flight and they're trained to fight in loose formations just like the Americans are. And in Babits and Howard’s “Long, Obstinate and Bloody” even they they looked at the casualties on the north side and it seemed like the conclusion they drew was that the Hessians were also shooting at officers the same way Americans were, because to them, it seemed like there were in an unusually high amount of officer casualties on that part of the battlefield.

William: Interesting. So Jason, you were talking about the the story of the battle and, you know, doing a little bit of myth busting. Is there any kind of special topic related to this story that you just love to highlight, love to point out related to the Battle of Guilford Courthouse and the surrounding campaign? Anything that

Jason: I'm always interested to tell people about the Hessians because you know that is something everybody learns about and you, you know, there's, like the Headless Horseman myth. Everybody knows the Headless Horseman and he was a Hessian and so not everybody realizes the Hessians were down here in the South as well, and specifically the Regiment von Bose is a wonderful, just weird unit to study because these guys, most of them, had never been far from home before. Next thing you know, they are being shipped across the Atlantic. They will not see home for nearly eight years.

Adrian: Wow.

Jason: And their war, their war experience is they land in New York in 1776, they spend about four years of mainly doing Garrison duty. Not really extensive campaigning or long campaigns. And then in the winter of 80-81 they get shipped down to the South and have the hardest campaign of their lives, having to march, like I mentioned earlier, the reason they came up with that stat of 16 miles a day, six days a week, I know that because the Hessians kept great records, they kept records of how far they marched on a daily basis, where they were campaigning, what was happening. So the Regiment von Bose‘s journal is how I know how far they are going. And so these guys uh went from four years of almost like Garrison like duty to a hard campaign, a bloody battle, and they are just a fascinating group to talk about. And the the whole thing about them being mistaken for Continentals is such a unique thing that happens here, and I even had a walking tour, I still do sometimes, where I lead people through the battlefield in the footsteps of Regiment von Bose, and to the South of our park we have a park run by the city of Greensboro, and that's where we think the apex of that separate flight happens, and I always ask permission of that park that I can take groups in and take them onto the actual area where that separate flight was happening as well. So they… that is one thing about this battle that really caught my imagination and made me dig in deeper about what their experience of the war was.

William: That's awesome.

Adrian: That's really cool.

William: I mean, so while we're on the topic, I'm this is actually I believe the first time in our podcast, we've discussed the topic of Hessians.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Do you wanna do just a real quick introduction explaining kind of who these guys are, why they're here? I know there's that big understanding, misunderstanding, “Oh, they're they're mercenaries.” I think a lot of the recent histories have been able to kind of put that one to bed and disprove that. But if you wanna just talk a little bit about who these guys are and where they're from.

Jason: Absolutely. So for anyone who's not familiar, Germany doesn't exist at this point. There is no one consolidated German state. It's a bunch of principalities in central Europe, and the British had for about 100 years at this point routinely kind of worked with German units like this. And the way I saw one author describe it is that they are not mercenaries because they're not individual soldiers of fortune. The way he describes it is that the Hessian states were mercenary states, so the idea was they would rent out their army and the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel would use those funds to to do, amongst many things, public works. He would make public markets. He did a very low version of kind of a health care for his people and he set up educational institutes. So the idea was that he was doing these public works and was able to do it without taxing his own people. And they did it by renting out their army to the British. So in that sense, that's what what my favorite description of them is that they were not mercenaries, but they were a part of a mercenary state. And so a lot of these guys are, I mean, similar to Americans, are coming from an agricultural background. There wasn't a likelihood to be able to get your own farm, really. Land was at such a premium that they are, amongst the many things they are surprised by when they come to America, is they're surprised by the standard of living most Americans have, the availability of land is very nice looking to them as well, and yet they didn't buy into the American idea, ideas and the principles behind the American Revolution, because the way some of them describe it is that the British Army, just won you a continent in a previous war and now you're rebelling against them? How ungrateful are you? So it's not so much, and yet we do know there are tons of Hessians who will desert and start a new life in America. And so it's interesting that that kind of give and take of not believing in the ideology, but seeing that things they have opportunities in America that they will not have if they go back home. And it's fascinating. And then there's also the fascinating part that in the propaganda of the time Hessians are described as these blood thirsty monsters. They'll bayonet, they'll bayonet your family and babies to trees, they'll eat human flesh, and yet at the same time that propaganda like that is being put out there, also, putting out offers for any Hessian who would desert with his weapon could get land. So it's again, it's like on one hand we're calling these guys monsters and at the same time, if you desert, we'll give you what you can become a citizen here and we'll give you a farm.

William: “That's what we need in our nation!”

Adrian: Gotta love propaganda.

William: So you mentioned all the different principalities, where was the Regiment von Bose from?

Jason: They are from, they are true Hessians, which I'm glad you asked that because we call German troops all Hessians. But they're not all Hessians. So it's several German principalities, but there's Hesse-Kessel is one so they are genuine Hessians. The reason we use that umbrella term is because of about the 30,000 or so ish Germans who come over 18,000 of them are genuine Hessians, and that's why the umbrella term. But there's actually I can't think of off the top of my head, but there's several different kind of small states in Germany and the German region at that time who are giving troops up.

William: Now do we have any records from the Regiment von Bose to have any idea how many of those guys, if any, did end up taking that offer of land and citizenship?

Jason: Umm, no, I don't think we have anything that could kind of give us a good number. The only kind of interesting number I ever saw was that we do have kind of a broad idea of who deserts or how many guys are deserting and when. And oddly enough, the biggest desertions occur after surrenders. It's almost like after Burgoyne surrenders at Saratoga and after Cornwallis surrenders at Yorktown, it's almost like some of these guys could like justify it to themselves in their own head. That all right at this point, I've done my duty so I shouldn't feel guilty if I run away. Adrian: So you gave us some great, great stories, Jason, if people are interested in learning more, what are some places, resources that they can go to find more about Guildford Courthouse?

Jason: Umm, so our park has a YouTube page that includes some videos. It has our park movie on there if you wanna watch that. And it also has a virtual tour I created. Some of the best books on this battle are, umm, a former Ranger who used to work here, his name was Tom Baker, he wrote a book called “Another Such Victory,” so if you want a very concise book on the battle, “Another Such Victory” by Tom Baker is wonderful. The deep dive into the battle is gonna be Babits and Howard's “Long Obstinate and Bloody.” And then there's books about the entire Southern campaign, which are great. The ones I think of are John Buchanan's books “The Road to Guilford Courthouse” and “The Road to Charleston.”

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Jason one last final question for you and we've we talked a lot about you know, the past of course historians, but looking at a little bit of our future, you know with the time of our recording, we're a couple years away from the 250th anniversary celebrations, the 250th anniversary of the revolution beginning, of the Declaration of Independence. So as we're thinking about what is the future of our histories, what is the future of our our battlefields and our stories; what is something that kind of you personally would like to see or be able to do or be a part of as we move forward with commemorating and interpreting these places in the Revolution?

Jason: I am very interested in doing more programming to connect the war to the Constitution to understand how you get from being a colony, to having the Articles of Confederation, to the Constitution. I am interested in helping and doing programs, but I'll studying more to show how you know people are essentially having to create a brand-new government structure from scratch and when you do that, not everything's gonna be great ideas. Not everything's gonna work. And so exploring that and exploring the ways that these people are on the fly, having to try and conceptualize uh representative democracy is, you know, I I want more programming like that. And I'm trying to do more to essentially connect what I would say is connect the war to the Constitution, which is to say that the Constitution is the “So what?” of it all. You have a big war, well, what's the outcome? This is it.

William: Kind of figure out that bullets-to-ballots pipeline.

Jason: Yes, exactly.

Adrian: I love how we get so many different answers. Well, thanks Jason for joining us and educating us on all this great, great history and information. That's going to conclude and another episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. To learn more about the American Revolution and our home national parks, check out www.nps.gov/NISI for me, Ranger Adrian at Ninety Six National Historic Site, www.nps.gov/OVVI for Ranger William at Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail, and www.nps.gov/GUCO for Ranger Jason at Guilford Courthouse National Military Park. Thank you for listening, and we hope you enjoyed it, and that we will see you again next time when we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

William: Bye!

Adrian: Bye! [Outro sounds of drums, muskets, horses, and men fighting]

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic site.

William: Together we will explore some of the well-known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Let's dive in.

[sounds of drums, muskets shooting, and horses]

Adrian: Thanks for joining us today and today we have special guest Ranger Jason Howell from Moores Creek National Battlefield in North Carolina, and I'm gonna let him tell you a little bit more about himself.

Jason: Yeah, I'm, I'm a Ranger here at Moores Creek National Battlefield, Umm and I was a I'm a U.S. Navy veteran I was on a submarine when I was in the Navy and I got my degree in history at UNCW and then I got a Masters in U.S. Military history at American Public University, or American Military University, I'm sorry, and I wrote my thesis actually on the Battle of Moores Creek Bridge, so that should help out with the day's topic.

William: Now how long have you been a, a Ranger there at Moores Creek, Jason?

Jason: Ohh, I've been here probably since ‘09.

Adrian: 14 years?

Jason: Yes.

William: So you're definitely someone who's we’ll say, well, steeped in the story, both academically and professionally. So when we're talking about Moores Creek, let's start out with kind of the basics here with where we are looking at. We mentioned that it's in North Carolina, but where in North Carolina is this site located today? But also in the American Revolution, where would this place have been known? How is this known then and now?

Jason: Um Moores Creek, probably during the revolution was not widely known. It was it set on a naval store plantation in New Hanover County. What is now today Pender County. And it I mean, and there was a road that ran through here and there was a bridge that ran over the creek and there was very few roads in North Carolina, very few roads to the coast and that's one of the reasons why the battle’s being fought here, because it was a road and bridge. Today, uh, you know Moores Creek, like I said, it's in Pender County. It's 23 miles above Wilmington, North Carolina, right here on the coast. So not too far from from the beach. If you, you know, if you ever want to come visit us. We're right here at the beach.

Adrian: Now, Jason, you said it was on a naval store plantation. What does that mean?

Jason: Oh yeah, uh naval stores, so. It's the lifeline of the British Navy. So you have your tar pitch and turpentine that is created from the sap of the long leaf pine and that helped, that went into actually help building ships as far as with the tar and the pitch, you would seal the hulls of the ships and stuff and grease the riggings. Turpentine was basically used for medicinal purposes and stuff like that, but it was all, you got all of that from the from the pine tree. Adrian: Alright, so very important, important place for anybody any big nation, really.

Jason: Yes, Great Britain. I think we we've determined that they got about 95% of their naval stores from North Carolina.

Adrian: Oh wow.

William: Wow.

Jason: So very important little colony during the American Revolution.

Adrian: So we've covered where it's at; when in the revolution is the battle at Moores Creek going to take place?

Jason: Sure. Um very early on. This is going to be February 27th, 1776. Four months before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. So very, very early.

William: Now, being that early in the American Revolution, and this is one of the points of why we talk about this being a podcast about the Southern Theater and not the Southern Campaign to take the focus away from that traditional 1780-1781 main British Army focus. But being this early in the war, this is prior to that time. This is prior to Lord Cornwallis, these British regulars being here in the American South. So who are some of the kind of the key players and influential leaders on both sides of this story?

Jason: Sure. Yeah, so, uh, you first of all, we'll start with the British side of things. Your your main player probably I would say it would be Governor Josiah Martin is basically the guy that gets everything going. And then you have a lot of key players and I mean this is a huge campaign. Martin would ask for actual British troops to come down. You have Sir Henry Clinton, who's on his way. You have Lord Cornwallis who is on his way over from Cork, Ireland. He's bringing with him 5,000 troops. They were all supposed to meet up here in North Carolina and bring about 10,000 extra guns to hand out to the folks of the North Carolina Backcountry. There's quite a few folks here that don't like the Patriots, and I'm not talking about the football team. Umm then the the boots on the ground here in North Carolina, the guys that are already here is you have Lieutenant Colonel Donald McLeod and you have General Donald McDonald, who would be overall in command. There's also another British Army officer who's already living here on half pay, basically retirement status, you have Alexander McLean and we could go on and on and on and on but I think we probably should stop there. It's probably enough. And then, of course, the the Patriots side of things, probably a little bit lesser known folks for many people, you have, I would say the main patriot leader would be Cornelius Harnett. And then from there, we're gonna drop down into, oh, you got Samuel Johnson. You have General Robert Howell. You got General James Moore. You would then have Richard Caswell, who's overall commander here at the Battle of Moores Creek and Colonel Alexander Lillington.

Adrian: That's a lot of people to remember.

Jason: That's a lot, yeah there. But this this huge campaign, you know, this is the first time this the British would attempt to invade the South. And I mean, you know, everybody looks at Moores Creek as kind of being this, the small little battle and it was, but it it's part of a much larger expedition and and has a has a pretty big impact. This little battle that we have.

William: Okay s we talked a lot about we have all these different commanders, a lot of moving parts, things that are happening; crossing the Atlantic, British plans trying to come into the coast in the South, what is gonna happen here? What is the story of the Battle of Moore's Creek?

Jason: Umm, you know, it's it's quite a long story, Will, it's this is a battle that had been brewing for about 10 years. Umm, there's much more going on here than just the battle itself. This is where North Carolinians have divided themselves on very firm sides and the British hoped to exploit that, you know, and I don't have to tell you guys this, but you'll listeners, they, you know, they probably don't realize the British are not sending large armies over here. They're sending just enough to prop up the Loyalist and the chief aim is to get those people who are going to be loyal to the crown to fight the war for them. So the British are looking for these opportunities and North Carolina presents a very interesting opportunity for Great Britain. Josiah Martin, the royal governor of North Carolina at the time, would lose control of the colony in 1775 early on. And when that happens, he basically writes the uh, he writes Parliament and say, hey, you know guys, he's saying, hey, send me 7,000 regular British troops with an additional 10,000 guns. I've got a large group of people here that don't particularly care for the Patriots, and that large group of people are, is not the Highland Scots that we talk about primarily, it's a group of people called the Regulators. There was a rebellion fought here early on in North Carolina, called the Regulator Rebellion. Um, only one battle, the Battle of Alamance, pitted backwoods farmers against the royal, then royal governor, Governor Tryon, William Tryon, I'm sorry I didn't mention him earlier, but William Tryon and his government. And everybody kind of looks at that, oh well, that's a royal governor. And you got all these poor backwoodsmen. They're fighting a royal governor, so therefore it has to be that these these backwoodsman are hardened patriots and the and they're not. They're good British subjects. They have been probably unfairly taxed by the local government and it keep in mind the local government, not parliament. And when they're unfairly taxed, there's this, it, I could go ohh all day about this little subject, but essentially what it comes down to is both sides really begin not to talk to one another and they take up arms and a battle is fought. And when that battle is fought, the royal governor and his army would win pretty handedly and to add insult to injury, after that battle is fought they deem all these Regulators as being outlaws and they're still made to pay taxes and without any representation in the colonial assembly, which is really odd because the Patriots here in North Carolina are telling Parliament hey, you can't tax us, we have no representation in Parliament. And the Regulators never really forgot that. And to divide it even more, Governor Tryon leaves. And when he leaves, he, insteps governor Josiah Martin in 1771, and Martin comes in and starts looking at the situation with the folks in the Backcountry, this Regulator rebellion, and Martin, and he, he he's completely night and day between Governor Tryon and Governor Martin. Governor Martin is by the book British law, like everything is by the book. You better show me policy, because that's what we're gonna follow. Whereas Tryon was ah I’ve got some things to do, but if I need to bend the law, I'll do it. And I think that's probably the reason why he got along with the Patriot leaders here in North Carolina so well, because he was the type of person that was, well, I need to get this done and I’ll kind of turn the eye on this type of deal. Whereas when Martin comes in and he starts reviewing what happened during the Regulator rebellion, he starts really cracking down on these patriot leaders saying, hey, you guys really did these backwoodsmen wrong. They shouldn't be called outlaws. In fact, I would suggest that you take the moniker of outlaw off their names and the, and the Patriots never really come off that. Which is gonna leave a bad taste in the the Regulator's mouth. And everybody knew what was going on here, even in way over in England. Everybody had heard about this Regulator rebellion, and no one wanted to come to North Carolina, so that would bring in your, your, your Highlanders. They start sending Highlanders in here because where do you send the people you don't want? The place you don't want to go. So you get a large influx of Highlanders starting in 1771 onward. So you got a bunch of a fresh new lot of Highlanders coming in. And when this happens, and when Governor Martin loses control of the colony in 1775, the large group of people he's talking about are the Regulators and these Highlanders are kind of like this icing on the cake. He's looking at, he says, ohh yeah, we've got Regulators, but we also have a large group of Highlanders that's been coming in and I think I can get them these guys on my side as well. And eventually the British will sign off on it mainly after the Patriots would attack Fort Johnston in the cap, in the mouth of the Cape Fear River. In July of 1775, the Patriots will attack this place in what is present day Southport, and when they do that, they the Patriots had attacked the government installation. And so, Governor Martin then declares war on North Carolina. And so after that happens, uh, the British kind of sign-off on this plan. They say, yeah, we'll send you some troops and and we really believe that you can get all these people together. So this plan starts to breathe. But the Patriots, they don't sit back. You know, they could be sitting back and just kind of maybe waiting in the wings, but they really started getting themselves prepared. They start developing minute men units as opposed to your militia. Your militia are typically men between the ages of 16 and 60. Your minute men are probably going to be between the ages of 16 and 25. Sort of going to be a lot younger. They're gonna get a little bit more training than your militia. Your militia gets, uh, probably three or four days a year. Whereas your minute men were to be trained for three weeks straight and then after that they were to meet once a month to to train and drill. And they were to carry their weapons and to be ready to go in a moments notice. So they would then also start developing their Continentals. There's the 1st and 2nd North Carolina that will be developed during between September 1775 and the Battle of Moores Creek Bridge, which occurs in February ’76. So you have all that being built up. And so there is a there's a, a time between 17, 1775 and 17, you know, the September ‘75 and ‘76 where the Patriots were training, and but the the Loyalists they went into hiding. They are not training, they're just kinda hanging out. Not really making themselves known. And eventually Governor Martin would call for them. Sometime in January, I don't remember exactly when, but he would call out for the Loyalists to to make their way to the coast. But before he had actually done that, General Donald McDonald, not to be confused with Ronald McDonald, he and Lieutenant Colonel Donald McLeod would come into North Carolina probably around September 17th, 1775. And they went into the Backcountry. But as they came into North Carolina, they actually come into the port of New Bern and tell the Patriots, hey, we're here to live with our countrymen. We don't want to cause any trouble. We were we are formally of the of the British Army, but we don't want to have any part to do with that. So you know, they're they're already coming in and telling lies, but the port authorities let them through and they go into the backcountry and they're starting to try to raise an army from the Highlanders and the Regulators. And so they're going around during this time and they're talking to Regulators and, or former Regulators and Highlanders, saying, hey, you know, the governor's gonna call on us pretty soon. And and there are some pretty big numbers, according to Donald McLeod of who he talked to. There's one number they said that he said that he had talked to a large body of Regulators, at least 3,000, that had agreed to to form. And he and several thousand Highlanders actually had agreed to form as well. But as things draw near to February, the only people to really show up in great numbers are your, your Highlanders. You're probably looking at least I'd say somewhere in the neighborhood of close to 2,500 Highlanders in Cross Creek, which is present day Fayetteville, and you're looking probably only about 200 Regulators. There had been a large body of Regulators that did turn out, but by a lot of accounts these guys went home when they saw the Patriots forming and moving towards the east. And so a lot of those guys went home and when some of them got to Cross Creek, they thought that Governor Martin would be there, but he was nowhere to be found. So even more of them turn around and go back home, leaving only about 200 Regulators or former Regulators there. And because they didn't really wanna be led by Highland officers. And so when governor or when Donald McLeod gets his troops together, he kind of splits him in half, leaving a part of his men in Cross Creek to defend the city because they would raise the royal standard above the above the city, and taking about 1,600 of his men and moving towards the coast, giving him a roughly around 1,400 Highlanders and 200 former Regulators who then move out. As he moves out, keep in mind we have the Continentals that have formed, um, Continentals under James Moore then Colonel James Moore, would move up from Wilmington, the 1st North Carolina, along with the Wilmington District Minutemen, about 1,100 troops would come up and meet General Donald McDonald just south of Cross Creek. And they had with them roughly about five artillery pieces. And they're just kind of waiting at the south of the city. And General Donald McDonald comes marching out and he sees them across this small creek. And they kind of stop and start sending each other messages, you know. And it was really kind of to buy time. General Donald McDonald is waiting till nightfall because he's actually spotted the Patriots with their artillery, knowing that he had no artillery of his own and he that he needed to preserve his force. He decides to evade that force in the middle of the night. And he started marching down a road which is the road that they're actually gonna travel down and actually fight that, fight the Battle Moores Creek on which is the Black River Road. And they get ahead of that group of Patriots. Now, when Colonel Moore wakes up and realizes that the Loyalists got ahead of him, he quickly sends word over to another minute men unit led by Richard Caswell, who's the principal commander at the Battle of Moores Creek, says, hey, you know, get to Corbett’s Ferry. Corbett’s Ferry is about 18 miles north of where the Battle of Moores Creek will take place. Get to the ferry crossing now. Ferry crossing is basically just the flat bottom boat that takes you from one side of the river to the other. So get to Corbett’s Ferry, burn the ferry crossing, and wait for the Loyalists there. Caswell has with him at that point around 800 men, primarily minute men, a few militia, and he actually gets to Corbett’s Ferry first. He gets to Corbett’s Ferry, burns the ferry crossing. Meanwhile, Colonel Moore will send Colonel Lillington and a portion of his minutemen down the Cape Fear River on rafts, about 250 men to come and support Colonel Caswell. They get off just south of Moores Creek, off the river, off the Black River, and they come up off the Black River and head towards Moores Creek, to actually come up behind Caswell, which is north of Moore's Creek at Corbett’s Ferry. General Donald McDonald has his men fanned out along the the two rivers, the the South and the Black River, looking for ways across both of them to get around the Patriots. And they actually find a place on the Black River, where they find an enslaved man who knows where a sunken skiff is. And when I say sunken it isn't… they had a hole in the bottom of the boat and they, the Patriots, had put rocks on the boat to sink it into the river. So the enslaved man goes down, takes the rocks off, brings the skiff up and General Donald McDonald starts ferrying his men across the Black River, 5 miles beyond Caswell's position. And Caswell didn't know what was going on, and so he's just kind of waiting there at the ferry crossing and then all of a sudden, he hears the bagpipes starting to play General Donald and his bagpipers and his drummers to the ferry crossing. So the Patriots are kind of just there, at the ferry crossing, thinking hey, the Loyalists are coming up to the ferry. And but they had the main force had actually got across the river and they were about to make another attack. Um at one point there, or somehow, Caswell realizes that he's about to be outflanked, and he leaves Corbett’s Ferry and he leaves it in a hurry and he falls back onto Moores Creek Bridge. And we know he leaves it in a hurry because the Loyalists capture several wagons, some of them with weapons. They capture about 23 Patriots, and Caswell will fall back onto Moores Creek Bridge. And it's once he gets to Moores Creek Bridge, Colonel Lillington had come up and had gotten to Moores Creek Bridge, and at that point they decided, hey, let's make a stand here. Moores Creek is very important because there's very few roads, Moores Creek is 10-feet deep in most places, the size of regulation basketball, so you're not wading across Moores Creek. And so they're gonna make this stand here so they start throwing up earthworks. And not only did they put up earthworks on the east side of Moores Creek, but they put up earthworks on the west side. The west side is the same side as the Loyalists would be on, the east side would be towards the ocean, toward where the Loyalists are trying to get. We believe, we don't know, there's not a whole lot of writing or thought out there as why Caswell did that. We believe that Caswell did that to deceive the Loyalists. There’s not a whole lot of information as to why he did that. Caswell never writes down “Oh yeah, I did this to deceive,” we just don't know. We can kind of gather that that's probably what's his plan. But he places them on the west side and on the east side is where the battle, you know, where they're gonna take up and defend themselves. But they start building these earthworks probably on the 26th of February. Late in the afternoon, the Loyalists would have camped about 6 miles north of this position here at Moores Creek Bridge, and they send a Loyalist courier down. This courier is a well-educated man and he comes riding into the Patriot camp, and on the west bank mind you, about 6 o'clock that afternoon or 6:30 in February. So, you know we're here in the South. About 6:30 in February is dark, so the only things that he sees, um, is the Patriots on the west bank. And he describes hey, there's earthworks there, and there's about 1,000 men because by that time with Caswell’s force and Lillington’s force, we're looking somewhere around 1,000 Patriots given the various different accounts that I have. But they, they're all camped on the west bank that night. And so the Loyalist courier sees them on the wrong side of the creek, um, and kind of not very well-defined earthworks, but some earthworks, umm, and he leaves after that he actually delivers a message for Caswell and his men to surrender. Caswell, of course, says no. But he takes back the information that he gathered and he gives it to General Donald McDonald. Now from what I can gather, is he probably doesn't really give it to McDonald more so that he gives it to Donald McLeod. Um, McDonald had become sick and from what I can tell, very ill. A lot of the Loyalists, or at least most of them, had no tents to sleep under. They were just basically sleeping out and, you know, under the stars. And it had been raining for a couple of weeks, so they're probably sick and and and cold and and everything else. And General Donald McDonald's probably about 70. So he come down with something as something like pneumonia from what I can understand, umm from what little bit of account that I do have, umm. And so McLeod takes this information and decides to make a night march. He decides to start marching about 1:00 AM because seeing the opportunity of the Patriots on the west bank with their back to the water, he feels that he can come down here and surround the Patriots, somehow get a group of men behind the encampment to cut off the bridge, he can capture the Patriots here at Moores Creek and and and alleviate that army in front of him and then make his way to the coast. Umm, so he starts marching and he gets down here and he actually sends a group of men around the backside of where the Patriot encampment was, towards the bridge crossing. Meanwhile, the forces, they kind of, they spread out into two units: one led by Donald McLeod, and the other led by Alexander McLean, another former British Army officer. And they start leading their men into the encampment on the west bank. And they're creeping through the woods. It's probably about 4:00 o'clock in the morning and they can see campfires still burning, lights flickering, maybe some tents here and there, and and once they get into the encampment, they realize there's no one there. The Patriots have actually fallen back onto the east bank into the earthworks they had uh built the day before. And now why did they do that? Maybe they heard the Loyalists coming. We don't know. One of the things that we do know is that there was a sheriff that would go on trial after the Battle of Moores Creek Bridge, the Duplin County Sheriff. He was he got in trouble for being a go-between. He would go to Loyalists and say, hey, I know where the Patriots are, how much money you got? Then he turned around and go over to the Loyalists, hey, you know? And so he was basically playing both sides. So it's it's possible that the sheriff tipped off the Patriots. But either way, the Patriots would then follow would fall back into the east side on the east side of Moores Creek, into the earthworks. And so when the loyalists get there, they're creeping through and they don't find anybody in the encampment and all of a sudden out towards where the bridge is, they see muzzle flashes and shots, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. The Loyalists that went to secure the bridge had actually seen some Patriot sentries which is your guards. They're there at the bridge and they shoot at these Patriots, and the Patriots run off up this causeway behind them and to the commander at the bridge, a Captain Campbell, would explain to him, hey, we saw some sentries on the other side. We shot at them. They ran up this causeway. They're in... from what I can gather, like I said, there's very little evidence out there, but we we believe that they thought these Patriots had set up a kind of a rear guard or a kind of a, a way to kind of allow them to know that, hey, the Loyalists had got there, but the Loyalists decided that, hey, there's just a very few Patriots probably left. Looks like they left their encampment, kind of in disarray, looked like they got out of here in a hurry so they start forcing men across this bridge. But the problem is with Moores Creek Bridge at this point, the Patriots have dismantled it, at least a portion of it. And then they greased the girders with soft soap and tallow to make it difficult to cross. They eventually get about 50 men across and once they get 50 men, they feel that's probably enough. Lieutenant-Colonel McLeod is across the creek with his men, and so he charges up this narrow causeway and they and they charge headlong into the Patriot position. They probably run about 100 yards up this causeway and all of a sudden the Patriots just opened fire, a devastating fire. Not only do the Patriots have 1,000 men with muskets, but they have anywhere from 2 to 5 artillery pieces. And at this point blank range it's it's very deadly. Some of the stories that come out of that is that McLeod gets back up to his knees after the first volley rings out and he orders his men forward and then another volley rings out and the initial charge is all but over. The Loyalists would fall back on to the bridge, umm, rally up again, try to force themselves across the bridge and come up and take the Patriot position. They actually try this four times to no avail and eventually after probably about 40 minutes or so, they decide to kind of figure out a another way across the creek. Realizing there was no other way across the creek they head back to General Donald McDonald. McDonald orders his men to go inland to get away from the Patriots. Hopefully the British Army would be here. The British Army should have been here. They were supposed to be here in mid-February, but this is 1776 and no one's got a cell phone. General Donald McDonald can't call up Sir Henry Clinton, “Hey, man, what's going on? Umm, you know where you at?” Because both units, both Sir Henry Clinton, coming from Boston with his 2,000 men, he'd been delayed by storms in Virginia. Lord Cornwallis had also been delayed by storms coming out of Cork, Ireland, and neither one of them were gonna be here in time. Clinton doesn't get here until March. Cornwallis don't get here until I think it's May even that he arrives in, actually arrives in North Carolina. But the plan was for the Loyalists to try to get away and and kind of wait it out for the the British Army to get here. And the battle would be over relatively quickly. Some accounts have it as as less, as as 3 minutes. You'll hear if you ever come visit the park, it'll say by some accounts the battle was over in 3 minutes. That's probably the initial charge. But, and that's really, that's really how it kind of played out. There's no British Army here. The Loyalists get defeated very soundly, they probably have at least 30 casualties, 30 to 50 casualties that we know of on the field, and another 35 or so are MIA, missing in action. And so you're looking roughly at about 85 casualties on the Loyalist side and you have two casualties on the Patriot side. So very low numbers on the on the Patriots side when it comes to casualties.

William: Wow. Now I wanna ask a quick follow up question talking about, cause I've heard some of the traditional stories like you're talking about with the dismantled bridge and the the soft soap on the girders; can you tell us more about the “King George and broadswords” thing?

Jason: Sure. Yeah. So where that comes from is a body of Loyalists actually make it to the coast, umm, they did a huge loop around the Patriot lines and they get to the coast and they link up with Cornwallis. And Cornwallis, when he gets here in May, he writes a report and he says, hey, you know, there's a, yeah, I think it's May, it might be April, late April, but I can't remember it. Either way, he writes a report and in his report of the Battle of Moores Creek Bridge, he says that the Loyalist charge cry was to be “King George and broadswords” in his official report. And so when you see that “King George and broadswords” that comes from Lord Cornwallis himself, as far as what the body of Loyalists had told him, their their battle cry was to be so.

William: Now, do you believe this? Do you think that is a battle cry that they used, or is there a potential that they this is being embellished a little bit because either they know how Cornwallis will receive it if they mention King George? Or Cornwallis is embellishing it to show the loyalty of the people?

Jason: You know, I mean, it's very possible, but you know there there's no information out there as to you know why, what his thought pattern was behind it. You know, we could go down many of different rabbit holes and and as to why this was done and and it's very possible that you know trying to to rally the the support of certain people by mentioning “King George” or or maybe even the Highlanders with the “broadswords” itself. But you know but there again there's there's there's nothing out there that you know that says “This is why I did it.”

Adrian: So the Loyalists are defeated, does that kind of tamper with Loyalist support in North Carolina for a while at least? Or does it, does it do anything?

Jason: I think it does. For at least the Highlanders, I think after being kind of left here, I think that kind of softens the Highlanders stance towards the crown, or at least helping them out at this point. The Patriots would go around and commit several atrocities against Loyalists. And the Loyalists kind of, or at least in the Highland community, kind of shy away from, you know, saying, hey, I'm for the crown. And we we know that when they come back here in in 1781 after the Battle of Guilford Courthouse, when they come, when Cornwallis comes back down through Cross Creek, which is present day Fayetteville, umm, the Highlanders don't want to have anything to do with them. They they remember what happened here in in 1776, kind of being left out the dry. So it's very possible that it kind of quelled that. Now from what I can gather with the Regulators, it was almost a Hatfield-Mccoys type thing. Like almost every time they got a chance to join up with British forces; they did. Mainly because of what had happened during the Regulator rebellion in 1771. They never forget, gave the Patriots for that. To give you an example of the animosity they held towards the Patriots: a week prior to the Battle of Moores Creek Bridge, there was this Patriot officer and he was in this backwoods town trying to rally Patriot support. And these former Regulators, there's ten of them and I don't know exactly how the situation went down, I don't know if they grabbed the guy and lined him up against the wall, or they all just kind of went on and, you know, they all saw him at once. But in the court proceedings that has so and so shot this officer. So and so shot this officer, all ten of them shot this guy. And that's kind of give you an idea of, I mean, they just rode into town, they saw him, all right, you know, we're going to kill this guy.

William: Wow.

Adrian: Talk about holding a grudge.

Jason: Ohh yeah, there's a lot of bad blood in North Carolina. I think it was Bradford Jay Wood who said that North Carolina was probably the most violent place in the in all of the colonies prior to the American Revolution. And it had got pretty bad between the Regulators and the Patriots prior to the American Revolution. So yeah, a lot of, a lot of holdover from that.

William: And I want to thank you for sharing this because, like we were talking about, you know, so many people think Moores Creek Bridge and the Highlanders because of their role at the battle. But when you're looking at the larger campaign like you're explaining, so many people say “Ohh a former Regulator. They were they must have been against tyranny and against the king!”

Jason: Right.

William: And as you explained, no, they are for the king. They are against the local government, the corrupt government.

Jason: Right.

William: So when you have these coastal North Carolinians who had been part of this governor Tryon’s militia and his movement, now those coastal Carolinians have become Patriots. The former Regulators are not wanting anything to do with those guys. I've seen this in South Carolina records before, but it's great to hear this in North Carolina as well. Now all these great stories that you've shared with us; is there one that kind of really stands out with you? Is there one that you would say is kind of your favorite, either from the battle itself or like we're talking about this larger campaign?

Jason: I think really it is the story of the Regulators. Um mainly because it doesn't get told. They’re a very marginalized portion of the Battle of Moores Creek. I think it kind paints the Patriots in a less than positive light. And I think people haven't talked about the Regulators mainly because it hadn't, you know, it does kind of get that negative vibe towards the, the, the Patriots themselves because during the Regulator rebellion they, uh, the the colonial government here in North Carolina had had told the Regulators “Hey, you're going to pay for this mansion that we're going to build the governor and you, by the way, don't need any representation we’re your representation” and the Regulators were, you know, you know, they're not very educated people, but they were educated enough and realized that, hey, that's kind of against British law and wasn’t you're saying the exact same thing to Parliament in 1766 about the Stamp Act? That doesn't really jive. And, I just find that to be a very fascinating story, mainly because it kind of contradictory with the Patriots, the Patriot saying hey, no taxation without representation, but then they kind of turn around and do the same thing to their people of kind of lower standard here. It's it's really a, a class struggle I guess. It’s a class struggle. It’s your classic class struggle. You have your poor backwoodsmen in the periphery, you got your kind of eastern elites over here saying, hey, we're the government you do what we say. I think by far that's probably one of my favorite. I think also another one of my favorite things is to get into the the whole discussion of kilt or no kilt. It's always, it's always fun to hear both sides of that argument. What I will say is we did find a document not too long ago, an actual newspaper article that said that in November 1775 a large body of Highlanders came to North Carolina and actually landed in the Cape Fear, they were all here, they were, they were outfitted for war, and all 500 of them had kilts on. So one of the the interesting thing is there's a there's always this one group that says “Ohh there are there are no kilts in the in the in the colonies” and well we got a newspaper article here that says these guys, these 500 guys actually had kilts. Umm. Now, were they at the Battle of Moores Creek Bridge? I don't know. It's very possible they could have been a portion of the men that McDonald leaves behind at Cross Creek, they could have been at the Battle of Moores Creek Bridge, we just don't know. They there is also the fact that there are some Highland officers that are went up to Philadelphia that people like to bring up. But if you look at the timeline I think November of ‘76 that they're discussing what these Highland officers look like, that's February to November. I mean is it possible they still have the same clothes on? Maybe but more likely they probably changed clothes. And then if you look at the account close enough there's about three of them where it said they give a really good description of their hat, what kind of vest and coat and shirt they were wearing, but then when it comes to the trousers or the lower, they, it has unknown. So are you telling me you gave me a really good description of everything, but then when you get to the trousers, you're telling me unknown? Or is it the fact that the jailer who gave the account was like, you know, didn't really know what a kilt was? Or didn't know how to describe this guy has a kilt on or that he's wearing a dress?

Adrian: Thinks he has a blanket around his waist.

Jason: Yeah, yeah, that he's got a blanket around. You know that, that whole, you know, argument is always interesting to to listen to both sides talk about. Typically tell people we don't know. There's this account and that account and we have this knowledge here, but we don't know there was actually any here at the battle. So yeah, there those are probably my two favorite.

Adrian: Well, sounds like there's a lot of commonality in some of our stories when it comes to the contradictory nature of the Patriots.

Jason: Sure. Ohh well yeah. I think it's a good time, you know, to use this is they were pretty good at quote unquote fake news. They could they could make a mountain out of a molehill for sure if they wanted to.

Adrian: So are there any common questions or misconceptions that you get a lot from visitors that you maybe wanna set straight?

Jason: Well, there's a, uh, there's the the cannons here. There is a swivel gun that we have here in the park and I cannot tell you that the Patriots actually had a swivel gun. In fact, the description of their artillery is is very sparse. The two guns that came from New Bern, they said the larger one was called Mother Covington and they had a smaller gun and but they both left New Bern on carriages, plural.

Adrian: Yeah.

Jason: I know that because on the February the 24th, the man who built the carriages for the cannons that left New Bern stood before the colonial, or the Committee of Safety in New Bern and said, hey guys, I built these carriages and I hired some horses to take them to Caswell. Can you pay me for it? Umm, so we know those two cannons at least left New Bern on carriages. And then we have three more supposed brass pieces, as it was in the description of of the man who talked about them, that came up from Wilmington. But it's it just said “we aligned three brass pieces with the bridge.” Now, were one of those a swivel gun? It's possible. Was it in a tree stump? Mmm I I can't say that for sure. Could they have put it in tree stumps? Definitely, but do I have any primary source that says that? No, I don't. I'm trying to think there's probably a couple of other ones that we could talk about, but unless you guys can think of any that you may have heard.

William: Was Jamie Fraser really there?

Jason: Yes, we did. We had we had four James Frasers here. Four. Now it was James Fraser, not Jamie Fraser. No, we had we had four James Frasers uh, we had 13 Donald McDonald's. There were several uh Donald McLeod's again McLeod, being a prevalent name, and Donald being very, you know, I can only imagine going into the Loyalist camps all “Hey, Donald!” everybody “Yeah!” I will say you know the importance of the Battle of Moores Creek is that this is the first decisive Patriot victory of the American Revolution. You know, prior to this, it's, you know, did did you, did the Patriots win it? Did we not win it? You know, or, you know, there's always this kind of like back and forth where all, you know, just for, like, the Battle of Lexington and Concord, you know the uh, British kind of crashed through the Patriot lines to get to the arsenal, but when they find out there's no uh weapons there, they kind of fight a, fight a pretty successful delaying action back to Boston. You know so there's always this iffiness of who wins? Who wins what? What’s going on? In the Battle of Moores Creek this is the first decisive Patriot victory of the American Revolution, and it allows North Carolina to be the first colony to allow its delegates to seek out and to vote on independence. It allowed them to go out to the Continental Congress and say, hey, North Carolina wants its independence. Say, what do you think you guys wanna join up? It’s become the first colony to do that. And it's also the last ever Highland broadsword charge anywhere in the world. The Scot Highlanders would would charge with their traditional broadsword. And from what we can gather and even over in Scotland they say the Battle of Moores Creek is the last ever, Highland, true Highland broadsword charge. Because when the Loyalists come across the bridge, the 50 of them that do, they charge with these with these weapons that are probably about 300 years old at this point or the design of weapons. They were designed for a time when men still wore armor on the battlefield. It was designed to cut through metal. It kind of had outlived its usefulness and this would be the last time there was this all out charge. So those that is the three things that make us a National Park. We were on designated National Park in 1933 for military study, and we were actually initially I think a Battleground, or not Battleground I’m sorry, a National Military Park and then they would change it over in 1980 from a National Military Park to a National Battlefield.

Adrian: I had to go look up the meaning of Donald, and it means basically “world leader” or… So that might be why it was popular. People like me- name meanings.

Jason: There you go.

William: So you've shared a lot about how significant like you just mentioned the three reasons for it being protected by the National Park Service, but you also mentioned that one of those reasons being this allows, this enables, North Carolina to give the green light to their delegates to begin seeking independence. So at the time of this recording, we are three years away from the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. Three years away from the 250th anniversary of the Battle of Moores Creek Bridge, as we're thinking about that, whenever people are listening to this or whenever they choose to think about Moores Creek Bridge or come visit the site, what is something that you think is important, kind of the major drop the mic walk away that all visitors and listeners should be aware about the battle of Moores Creek Bridge?

Jason: As far as it regards to the um, the America 250 event; we here at Moores Creek are looking at it as more so a story not of Moores Creek, but a story of the United States. A story of us. You know, when did we become us? Moores Creek is kind of that starting point. But hopefully you know for the for our A250 event which will occur in 2026, we are getting a lot of local parks to tell the story of not only you know what's going on during the colonial period, but what's going on during the antebellum period and what's going on during the Civil War and what's going on during the early or the late 1800s with the Wilmington Race Riots and what's going on with all the history within this region and bringing all of our stories together in in you know why, you know, we're gonna basically hopefully tell the story of the United States, not only the good, but the bad, but taking all those stories and piling them together. Because while the while the US, while you know the United States, started in, you know 1776, we kind of look at it as your grandfather let's say and your your you're gonna give him a birthday party and he's like 89 years old. You know, are you gonna just invite those people who know him right now? I mean those closest to him, just you, or you gonna invite all of his that he's had throughout his life? And and so we kind of look at it like that. We wanna not only celebrate the US being born, but we wanna talk about the US as a whole as as our our entire story. So that's kind of way Moores Creek is going to go about that. It should be a very interesting program that week. I’d say anywhere from the American Revolution I think up to World War Two, and maybe even further into the history here in southeastern North Carolina.

Adrian: Very cool.

William: Very cool.

Adrian: Well, thank you, Jason, for joining us. That's gonna wrap up our episode on the Battle of Moores Creek. If you would like to find out more about Moores Creek, Jason, where can they go?

Jason: Umm yeah, you could definitely look up our website here for the park or Google Moores Creek National Battlefield. I don't have the actual website in front of me, but definitely check us out there. You can check us out on Facebook or any any of the social media, we got Facebook, what is it, Instagram there you go that's the one I was trying and also Twitter and you can probably and we also have a YouTube channel that you can get information on. I would suggest, my suggested readings for you, “The Moores Creek Bridge Campaign,” by Hugh F. Rankin. Uh, there is “Redcoats on the Cape Fear” by Bert Dunkerly. That's probably the two prominent ones. There is one that just came out, “March to Independence, 1775 to 1776” by Mike Cecere. I believe I said his name correctly and that one's a pretty good book. Umm come call me, I will send you some information via email and I'd be more than happy to do any of that.

Adrian: Well, thank you. Once again that's gonna conclude this episode of Southern War, the podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So thank you for listening and we hope you enjoyed and we'll see y'all next time when we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

William: Bye everyone!

Adrian: Bye!

[sound of musket shots, drums, and horses]

William: Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

[Intro sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swards, and men fighting]

William: I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic site.

William: And together we will explore some of the well-known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Let's dive into it.

[sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swards, and men fighting]

Adrian: Alright. Well, thanks for joining us today. Today we have a special episode. We are joined by our HBCUI intern at Ninety Six National Historic Site, Ocean Dunbar. Ocean tell us a little bit about yourself.

Ocean: Hi first of all like say thank all to both of y'all for having me on to the podcast. This is very nice. A little about myself. I'm a rising senior at Prairie View A&M University, about 40 minutes outside of Houston. I’m majoring in History and minor Af-Am studies and I just like to learn new stuff everyday.

Adrian: What's Af-Am studies?

Ocean: African-American studies.

Adrian: Ohh OK awesome.

William: So Ocean, can you tell us a little bit about this, this program that you're in? What is the HBCUI intern program and what what does that all stand for?

Ocean: Ohh well HBCU does stand for historically black colleges and universities, and then the I is for intern in interp and the program is a gateway to connect HBCU students who want to connect with the National Park Services or connect with the youth. It's all about like, interpretation, education and stuff like that.

William: Very cool, very cool.

Adrian: So what got you interested in being part of the HBCUI program?

Ocean: Well, at first I would say, I was looking for internships. I was in my junior year. I was like, oh, I need an internship. Something to do with my major and being a history major some might think there’s not a lot to do in our field or we're overshadowed, we don't really get our credit, it's all about, you know, the nursing majors, the engineering, the business. Well, that's for my school. But I was looking at internships and I came across um Greening Youth Foundation and I did like the description. I was reading about it. I applied you know had an interview, had an interview with Josh and Adrian at the park. I really loved that. And they really umm while doing the interview they said a lot of things that really I gravitated towards, caught my attention and it's not only like a job or intern its, I'm actually learning. That's the thing I'm learning and I will use these skills outside of the internship as well.

Adrian: I'm glad to hear that. [Laugh]

William: I think it's a great point that you made there Ocean. Is that with this with this program, this internship, you know, it's not just a chance to give students a job or experience, but there is something that the interns are helping the park with. There's programs that the interns are helping with, but also it's skills, it's knowledge that the park is then able to give back to the intern and help them further their not only academics, but their professional career. I think it's really nice that you pointed that out. So as you've been kind of learning about these stories and learning about these topics, what do you think is one that you've come across that you would say is kind of one of the more interesting ones about the Revolutionary War sites? You know what is something that's really spoken to resonated with you during your internship?

Ocean: Umm, I have to say for sure the story of Anne Cruger. I actually did a little small presentation about her to the SAR. Anne’s story was so extraordinary. She just been through so much. For those who not familiar with Anne Cruger, she is the wife of John Cruger the leader of the Loyalists and they were specifically here in Ninety Six and other places as in Savannah and stuff like that. As I researched on Anne and her experience while following John to war, she's been through a lot of things. A lot of traumatic things. And we don't really see that when we're speaking about revolutionary figures is really about the men, but not so much of women. And I thought that was kind of cool, like, reading on her story and stuff.

Adrian: So what's some of the stuff she went through?

Ocean: Ohh well let's see the first thing she went through was when she was in Bloomingdale, New York where she lives, where her family lives. Some Patriots actually broke in through their home, ransacked it and burned it down, but one was actually planning on to cause harm to Anne and her family, but he changed his mind. Luckily. And the family ended up getting separated and was separated, she was lost into the woods. She had to walk several miles in the cold. It was October, I believe.

Adrian: Up north too.

Ocean: Yeah, in New York in October. It’s dark. You you don't know where to go, but luckily someone umm took her in for a time being. She did end up reuniting with her family and after that she decided to follow John into war almost. So she headed to Savannah on a ship and on her way to Savannah, it actually was a tropical storm. And the tropical storm end up knocking over her fleet or some sort of destroying the boat and they had to go overboard. But before she you know, she could drown, luckily she didn't. The French actually scooped her up, which is weird.

Adrian: Ironic.

Ocean: Yeah. Ironic, but she described her time with the French as they were polite to her, despite her being a loyalist coming from a loyalist family. But as she was on the ship, umm, the French actually engaged in war with the British at Savannah and at the Siege of Savannah. And it's crazy because you're on this ship. Meanwhile, you're on this enemy ship that's aiming towards your husband and like you're just on the ship, like oh my gosh, or they gonna kill my husband.

Stewart: I hope one of these balls doesn't hit him.

Ocean: Exactly. And that's not like officially all that she went through just to be there. But that's like the beginning of what she went through. Stuff like that.

William: That's amazing because if our listeners aren't familiar you know this French assault on Savannah, I believe that's in in ‘79…

Adrian: Yeah.

William: You know it, it is this massive campaign. It is a thousands upon thousands of American and French troops attacking the British held city of Savannah, Georgia. Massive slaughter is gonna take place. A lot of American and French leaders are gonna lose their lives in the assault on the city, and I can't imagine being Anne, being on this French ship out in the harbor watching and hearing this battle take place because, I I know you know, Savannah is upriver a little bit. It's not right there on the coast, but it's definitely close enough that you can hear what's happening if you if not see in the smoke that that, that that is amazing.

Adrian: And that your loved one is is out there somewhere.

William: Right, knowing that your husband is involved in that. Ocean, do we know how or when Anne is able to rejoin John?

Ocean: Umm well after the siege or whatever. The French was a little bit unsuccessful, so they decided to go back, but they did drop her off at the coastline and she did shortly reunite with John. And then after that, that's where they come to Ninety Six. And as you know, the siege of Ninety Six, 28 days, and her being in the Fort but not really because when the siege started, she actually took refuge about a mile away into a minister home. But then again, she was still close enough to the battle to hear. So second time she was put in this predicament like “Ohh is my husband's gonna make it?”

William: Wow, you know, so many of our stories talk about these, these battles where there are local people who can hear what's going on and they know they have loved ones involved. But what you're talking about with Anne's story is the life of a follower. The the life of one of these women that has decided it is safer it is better for me for my family if I go with the army, go with the regiment and having to go through the trials of this, the campaign life, the hardships, the diet, the weather, the the physical exertion. But then also this roller coaster of there's a battle, did he make it OK? He's safe. Oh, there's another battle. Is he gonna make it OK, he’s safe. So how do we know what Anne is going through? Did she leave behind any kind of journal or diary, or is it is it letters? Where are you finding the information about Anne Cruger?

Ocean: There are like little notebooks, as she said when she recounted her, when she did recount her experience with the French. She did write about that, and there's also in some books or claiming accounts and stuff, and then we can look back on, like the dates of, OK, Cruger was here during that time and stuff like that. So like adds up.

Adrian: What's something that you've discovered that you think most people don't know or understand about the American Revolution just in general or specifically and you think that it's important that they remember or learn about it?

Ocean: Umm well, I did just say Anne Cruger, but besides that, I say South Carolina roll overall in the revolution, the southern campaign. Being from Texas and Arkansas, you know those states didn't exist at the time of the revolution, so doesn’t kind of play a big thing in our own what is taught down there, to say, which battles or which war get more attention. So actually South Carolina role as a whole was very important to even discuss the, when speaking about the revolution. Like I know just, over 200 battles…

Adrian: [laught] Yeah.

Ocean: …that happened, a lot more than any other state. And I thought that was interesting.

Adrian: Yeah, awesome. Yeah, that, that's true. I mean you, you've seen we get a lot of people coming in and being like I didn’t even know there was a battle in South Carolina or, you know…

Ocean: It was multiple battles!

Adrian: I didn’t know the revolution went farther south than Yorktown!

Ocean: Yeah.

William: Right, right, Yeah, it's always the great question is I didn't know there was something this far South or this far West and it's like, oh, man, do I have some maps to show you! We could talk for a long time.

Adrian: Right. Well, and I think that's part of the reason we're doing this podcast, just bring awareness to not just South Carolina, but all the stuff that went on in the South during the revolution.

William: Absolutely. So Ocean with all this research you've done and all these great stories that you're uncovering, not only this interest in South Carolina's role in the Southern campaign and in the American Revolution, the experiences of Anne Cruger and women like her, what is something that you you've kind of done with this? What is a any kind of program project? What's something that's gonna be kind of your legacy there at Ninety Six National Historic site?

Ocean: Um well, right now I am working on an idea of an exhibit for Anne for herself. But what have I done so far? Umm. I have did a presentation over Anne with the SAR so so that was pretty nice. I got to kind of network and stuff like that and some people were like they wasn't aware of the things that Anne went through.

Adrian: So yeah, the SAR was asking her to send them her talk. They were like what?

William: No for sure, because when you're looking at at the story of Anne, you know it's a big, big push, it's a big desire with the National Park Service, especially as we're coming up on the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution at the time of this recording, we're about two years away from it, really starting up. We're wanting to highlight these stories, these underrepresented, these hidden stories. So here you not only have a a loyalist, but a loyalist woman, so somebody who's story, who their their narrative maybe isn't included in a lot of the traditional histories. A lot of the traditional the the grand narrative, you could say of the American Revolution. So not only is this providing a little bit of a window into the experiences of a woman who's caught up in the Southern campaign, but a woman on the loyalist side. From a loyalist family. So it's it's fascinating research. I'm really happy to hear that this is what your program was about.

Adrian: So you know, we're like Williams said, we're approaching the 250, the American 250, and it's only two years away for Ninety Six, really. But we'll have other things, other events throughout that time, and of course, all the other parks will have events and stuff when their anniversaries are as well. But what are some projects or ideas that you think we should work toward for the 250th and even beyond, say in another 250 years, for the 500th anniversary?

Ocean: I think for sure, working more like the community, the Youth, because you know the youth are our future. So to teach them the history it will live on through them. We can't just have this history and not share it properly with the youth.

Adrian: Yeah.

Ocean: So I think for sure educating the youth more, more memorials, more research to just shine light on. There's always something new, like, even though this happened 250 years ago, because our country is very young, very young compared to other countries in the world. But at the same time, we do have a lots a lots of history. Even our founding history, it's a lot to uncover that still isn't uncovered, so this is just a start.

Adrian: Still always learning.

Ocean: Yeah, always learning.

William: Did you really just say the children are our future? Did you really pull that line?

Ocean: I think that.

Adrian: Well, she said the youth, youth, so she didn't quite say it exactly like that.

William: Ohh we, people know what she meant. OK, semantics aside.

Ocean: It's true!

Adrian: [laughing] So Ocean's told us about her awesome project and I did wanna let everybody know that it might be up by the time this episode is released, but it might not be up, but hopefully in the near future we will get the research that she's done on Anne Delancey up on the website. It should be going under the people tab that's under the history section. And we'll have, I think there's an area for like women and will definitely, definitely have it there. And then we might be able to work some of it into other programs and stuff like that, so hopefully we'll be hearing a little bit more about Anne and some of the other women and other, other stories.

William: Now Adrian I do want to point something out. We've been talking about Anne Cruger for this episode, and you called her Anne Delancey.

Adrian: I did.

William: So what other cool connection do we have with Anne that might be of interest to our listeners?

Adrian: So Ann was the daughter of… I forget his first name.

Ocean: Oliver.

Adrian: That's it. Oliver Delancey, who started Delancey Brigade, which is how Cruger came to be the commander for the DeLancey’s Brigade that was here at Ninety Six.

Ocean: Because he had no prior, he had no prior military experience.

Adrian: Yeah.

Ocean: He was like the Governor of New York.

Adrian: Yeah.

Ocean: That didn’t work out. So I was now I'm ready to fight, yeah.

William: So we're looking at not only is this going to be the story of a loyalist woman, but it's it's the story of the wife, of a loyalist provincial officer who is serving in the Southern Campaign in the siege of Ninety Six. And she's also the daughter of a prominent loyalist, helping raise provincial regiments to assist the British Army. I think this is really interesting to point out and to talk about because so many times you see this argument, especially looking at the 18th century of coverture where the woman does not have these legal rights outside of her husband or her father. So they kind of adapted that mentality into political thought and say, OK, well, the woman does not have a political leaning herself. It's just whatever her husband has. Like we see in some accounts of where the, the husband had been a loyalist during the war, and though the wife is able to say, well, that was his belief, not mine.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: But here not only is she the the daughter of a prominent loyalist, she is the wife of a loyalist officer with him throughout the entire campaign. So I think this is pretty safe to say that her opinions, her, her beliefs, her thoughts were in line with her family, that she herself is a loyalist following her conscience and following her beliefs. Do you all agree that that's kind of fair to say? Ocean: I would say so, but then again, even if it wasn't her beliefs she couldn't just step outside of it and like, no, this is wrong. I'm with them.

Adrian: Especially when you're in higher society.

Ocean: Exactly. And that's all that she knows. So it's not wrong for her.

William: And especially like I believe when you started out, we were talking about her home being pillaged and burned by Patriots. And maybe one of those situations where, politics aside, you cannot align yourself with the party that would do that.

Adrian: Yeah.

Ocean: Right. Yeah. But I would say Ninety Six doesn't really get its credit though like when it comes to the, the war itself or even the southern campaign itself, I just feel like it didn't get a lot of recognition as it should have. Like you can kind of say you know, it's been the first the sight of the first land battle South of New England that that's something. And then almost like, you know, the siege happened in 1781. So it was there from the beginning of the war up until then, almost the end.

Adrian: Yeah, I'm always like we're bookends!

Ocean: Yeah. And even before the revolution, you know, with the Cherokee War and stuff like that. So Ninety Six actually you know, had a lot of history.

Adrian: A lot happening.

Ocean: A lot happened in the small town.

William: And here's Anne Cruger being a witness to a big part of that.

Adrian: Alright, so that's really cool about, Anne Delancey. Why do you think it's important that we research people like her and, you know, learn more about people like her underrepresented and all that stuff?

Ocean: I know I'm saying a lot of cliche themes on this podcast, but you know it's it's the history. We don't know where we're going if we don't know, like, you know, the history of then. And then I remember we were at the Kings Mountain… Kings Mountain? Was it Cowpens? I can’t remember. We were on this tour. A group of elementary school children came and they were asking about, well, one little girl was like, where were the women during the war? And then one little boys like they didn't fight, this and that, and then tour guide like well, that's not true. So it's like, you know, not mis-education, but just it's not known.

Adrian: Perception.

Ocean: Yeah. Perception of that and the little girl just thought it was so cool. So things like that. You learn a lot. It's not just… like you said, it’s just a different perception of all you know, it's not just one sided and stuff like this, a one-sided history. You know what I mean?

Adrian: Yeah, you don't have much of a story if you only have one side of it, yeah.

William: If that's not a true statement right there, you can't go off of a one-sided history. This kind of ties in with something that we were actually discussing with another HBCUI, Cassie Chandler, who was working at Cowpens National Battlefield a little bit about perspectives and perception like you were saying. Here is this elementary school field trip who they've always kind of heard once description of the American Revolution. It's always soldier centric. It's fighting men. It is men leaders. And so here's this, this student, this child asking well, where's the bigger picture? She saw the narrative. She saw what was being presented and she saw the gap. So here we are trying to do this research. Here you are sharing this information about Anne Cruger, filling that void, and completing that full picture. That's really cool.

Adrian: We need that child to grow up and be the next park ranger.

William: Asking the questions exactly. That that is Park Ranger in the making, they just didn't know it yet.

Adrian: Yep. Alright, well, thank you, Ocean, for being willing to sit in with me and Will and let us grill you on, on Anne Delancey. Just a reminder to everybody, we will hopefully be putting the research that Ocean's been doing this summer on the website, if not some other places and we should be able to get that up under the history section and the people section. So if you're interested, you know, hopefully we'll get that up there rather sooner rather than later. Thanks for joining us.

Ocean: Thank you all for having me.

Adrian: This concludes another episode of Southern War. I’m Ranger Adrian at Ninety Six National Historic site. Ninety Six can be found at nps.gov/N I S I or at our Facebook page for Ninety Six National Historic Site.

[Outro sounds of drums, muskets, horses, and men fighting]

William: And I'm Ranger William with Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. Same as Ranger Adrian, our website www.nps.gov/O V V I and our social media Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. But that's gonna conclude another episode of Southern War, the podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and we’ll see you next time when we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: Bye!

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

[sound effects of musket shots, men shouting, and horses running]

William: I’m Ranger William from the Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic site.

William: Together we will explore some of the well known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to make the History.

[sound effects of musket shots, men shouting, and horses running]

William: So today we are joined by Cassie Chandler, an HBCU intern who is working with Cowpens National Battlefield. Cassie, thanks for joining us.

Cassie: It is a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

William: Uh, so before we get into kind of what this program is and the work that you've been doing here at a Cowpens National Battlefield, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from?

Cassie: I am from a small town outside of Charlotte, NC. It's called Waxhaw, North Carolina. It is me, my brother and my mom and dad, and I just recently graduated from the best HBCU, Benedict College, located in Columbia, SC, and I majored in Mass Communication.

William: Great. And that actually kind of brings us right into my next question about what is the HBCUI program? You said you just graduated from an HBCU, a historically black college or university, so what is this program that you're in?

Cassie: So this program is called HBCUI under the Greening Youth Foundation and it is an awesome program. This program is a nonprofit organization to give HBCU students all around the United States internships at national parks, historical sites, battlefields, etcetera.

Adrian: Alright, Cassie. So what first interested you in being a part of the HBCUI program?

Cassie: OK, so I love this question. So growing up, I was always kind of outdoorsy person, but actually my family, we always went to a lot of State Park just because of the area where we lived in. So I didn't really know about national parks or any really, how they even tied in with the federal government. Going to my sophomore year with COVID and everything, I had a lot of friends who were a couple years above me that attended Benedict that was in the Greening Youth Foundation HBCUI, so I had a couple friends who were at national parks in Georgia and also a friend who was at Saint Genevieve, which is a newer National Park. And he really got me connected with the supervisors and just the Greening Youth in general. And I was and I just applied and I was like, this is where my interest is, and FYI this is actually my second summer on doing this program. My first one was at Harpers Ferry National Historical Park

Adrian: Nice.

Cassie: Yes, and I'm happy to be here at Cowpens and hopefully yes, my love for national parks, all that, all that can grow.

William: Now, you said that this is your second summer. So this is a program for students while they're still in school, as well as recent graduates?

Cassie: Yes, yes it is. I do believe you can do it till you are 25. If I'm not mistaken, don't quote me on that, but yes, it is for students who after they graduated, they still have a love for this and they do qualify. It is for them as well.

William: Fantastic. Umm, so now you said that you had been at a Harpers Ferry National Historical Park before and this is kind of your first Revolutionary War National Park site. Now I'm sure growing up in the Waxhaw area, you maybe have heard a little bit about the Revolution, the battle that happened over there, but what is kind of some of the more interesting kind of topics and stories that you found while being with the National Park Service at a Revolutionary War site? Kind of being on this on this side behind the curtain?

Cassie: So this side behind the curtain is very informative. A lot of information and definitely about certain umm generals and colonels and captains. That's why I really like. Growing up in the Waxhaw area, we did learn a lot about the American Revolution as well, so being able to work as some, work somewhere where I have a lot of hands on material inside is amazing.

William: Now what would you say, one of your kind of favorite stories that you've kind of come across? Any certain person? Any certain story in particular that’s kind of really resonated with you?

Cassie: Absolutely. My favorite person, who I learned about so far, definitely has to be Andrew Pickens. He just he just really stood out as a sort of overall general guy, um, standing up, the the role he took inside the war, not just here at Cowpens, but other places as well. And I definitely found out in South Carolina he's definitely looked up to the most.

Adrian: OK, very cool.

William: It's that award winning smile of his right?

Cassie: Ohh, absolutely, absolutely.

Adrian: Yeah, that stoic look.

William: Such a charmer, that Pickens guy and the straight face.

Cassie: We love it. We love it.

Adrian: So while you've been doing your internship, and you've been learning about all these people, is there a certain topic that you decided to focus on for your internship?

Cassie: Absolutely. So sorry, if I'm jumping a question or two, but my, here in my internship I created an interpretive program, and that interpretive program is about perception during the American Revolution. So how back then these people saw things view things, etcetera. So jumping into that definitely about perception of the American Revolution and yeah.

William: Now I, I have more questions.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: That is a fascinating topic there.

Cassie: Yes.

William: So looking at their, their perception. You're coming from their experiences, their worldview, how they understood certain things. Is your program more of examining what their perspective, what their perception was to better understand them? Or was it more of a umm, here is their perception, therefore they understood it and then comparing that with some of our 21st century modern perceptions?

Cassie: So honestly, a little a little bit, yes, both in both of those answers. To definitely understand them and seeing the way how they move seeing the way, how, how even why they had the Continental like this, the militia like this or, or the, or the formation of this way, how they did things this way, trade, so on and so forth. And then definitely seeing that with envisioning the visitors and talking to the visitors like if you were in those same shoes being that role would you have done things this way? And so on and so forth.

William: I got you. I'm reminded sometimes of conversations I have with visitors where they’re questioning the decisions of a battlefield commander or of a campaign strategist. And they say, oh, well, that was so foolish. That was such a bad idea. Why would they ever do that?

Cassie: Right.

William: OK, wait a second. We have to look at it from their perception, their perspective.

Adrian: Well, and it's a whole lot easier to look at something afterward and be like, well, you should have done this.

Cassie: Exactly. Exactly.

Adrian: Well, you're not in the moment when that happens, we get that a lot at Ninety Six.

Cassie: I bet. And then we have to also think about technology and stuff then. But a lot of people don't realize all those war tactics and mindset. All those decision making back then we do, we use a lot of that nowadays and today's warfare and stuff like that.

Adrian: We do, yeah.

Cassie: Just of course to a higher extent and maybe a little bit better decision making. But we also have to think this was hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

Adrian: Well, there's a reason that we still get Staff rides for military groups.

Cassie: There you, exactly, exactly.

William: Great example. Okay so on this topic of perceptions and perspectives, is is there one story in particular, one person's perception that you've kind of been focusing on with your work in developing this battlefield tour, this interpretive program at Cowpens National Battlefield?

Cassie: Absolutely. So when I first got here to Cowpens, there was this painting here that really stood out to me as a painting by William T Ranney. And he is painting a picture of a little interaction, a little sword fight between William Washington and some British soldiers. And then in the bottom left corner there is a little African American boy firing at a British soldier, saving William Washington's life. And that really stood, that painting really stood out to me. And then when I got to go on the battlefield myself, I was able to see a wayside of that same painting. So I really wanted that to be a part of my program and of course asking the Park Rangers like where do I start? How I get this information? So of course just doing research and stuff like that later down the line, find out you know that little African American boy was actually a little white boy from Virginia, and he was actually William Washington's trump, um, trumpeter. And I'm like, why in the world did Ranney painting in this way? And just reading these chain letters and this kinda almost game of telephone later down line realizing that his perception in the way how he was reading this letter, painting his picture in his mind, he perceived it as this little black boy instead of this little white boy from Virginia. So I definitely had to make that a program just in itself.

William: You're looking at not only the perception of Revolutionary War actors, the people who are in the moment, the decisions they're making, but even kind of getting into the historiography of it. Of these early history, these early depictions, how have historians in the 19th, early 20th century, how have they perceived moments, actions, people through their worldviews of the late 19th century of the early 20th century rather than trying to understand the 18th century terminology. That's that's fascinating because this, this is something that we are we are still in. You know we, when you look at history, there are events that happened and we learn about them, we study them, we share them, we teach about them. But the historiography; the how do we tell about it? How are we doing the history? That is something that we are on the cutting edge of today and we are always developing and changing and trying to ensure that we are telling the truest story possible. So this is, that's a fascinating topic. I'm really happy to hear that you found something that really kind of connected with you so much

Adrian: So in all of your research and your studies while you've been here for almost two months now, what is something that you think people don't understand about the American Revolution that is important?

Cassie: That's a great question. So on some days when I'm doing operations I get so many visitors coming up and saying like ohh we didn't know this was American Revolution. We thought this was a Civil War battlefield, which, even though that was a very important time in in the world, I just think just honestly visitors and just people understanding that the American Revolution, it didn't just start at Cowpens or started at Ninety Six, or etcetera, but it's all connected. So I really, so when people come I really tell them, OK, learn all you can here and then make sure you go to NinetySix, or you make sure you go to Kings Mountain cause it's all connected for one common goal, which was of course to break away from the British and for us to be our own.

William: Especially I imagine where you said you really enjoyed learning more about Andrew Pickens. This Patriot officer who was at so many events and campaigns and saw so much service for the Patriot cause.

Adrian: And such a leader in the community.

Cassie: Absolutely.

William: Absolutely. When you look at a historic moment or a battle, it's easy to say, OK, here's this battle, here's what happened, beginning and end of the story right there. But when you look at it through this other way through these stories and these people, like you're saying, Cassie, you see these numerous events, these multiple battles and how they're connected through this person's life. So that's something that we do try to highlight. Actually, it's kind of one of the reasons we started this whole, you know, podcast, right Adrian?

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Is to show these connections between these different events and these different people within the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: And I think people will start to realize that even within the, you know, the Southern theater like ohh, look, this people creep over to the north. There is all the Northerners are coming down here for the Southern Theater.

Cassie: Exactly.

Adrian: So yeah, all connected.

Cassie: All connected.

William: And so speaking of connections at the time of this recording, we are closing in on the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, of the American Revolution. Again, at the time of this recording, we're only a few years away from the 250th anniversary of the First Battle of Ninety Six. Took place in 1775, 2025 will be the 250th mark

Adrian: Right around the corner.

William: It's closing in fast. So there's so many programs going on out there, the America 250, the A250, the different state commissions, making sure that this event is commemorated and remembered properly. Cassie, what did you think, in your opinion, what is something that you would like to see or you think would be important to see to help these 250th remembrances be done correctly?

Cassie: I would definitely say for both of these anniversaries should be done connecting correctly is to, let's do our best and make the visitor feel like they were really there. To not only honor, but to celebrate just the amazing accomplishments, everything that went down in both of these places. Just with, just with, you know, like kind of like what we're doing with you, what you're doing with with the with Overmountain Victory Trail, just the five senses. So maybe having music, our reenactors, our Park Rangers, everyone really lending a helping hand and just giving the not only the visions the experience, but also commemorating as well.

William: I'm gonna dovetail into that with why? Why do you think it would be so important to be able to have that interactive multiple sensory approach to commemorations?

Cassie: Ohh, because I do think a lot of people don't really understand unless they can put their, if they can put themselves in their shoes. And that might be little things we, with you know, stations where they can put on the hat, they can put on the jacket, or just listening to what they have done then, they smell the campfire, etcetera.

Adrian: Making some kind of connection, basically.

Cassie: Absolutely.

Adrian: I know you're about to leave us in like a week...

Cassie: I know.

Adrian: But what's something that you hope you've left behind? Like the legacy that you've left behind in the time that you've been here?

Cassie: Ohh great question. I would like to think I left behind a really, really good program, so the Park Rangers or even the other interns that come through Cowpens can of course perfect it and eat and just make visitors really, really think and understand the importance not only national parks, but perception, maybe even making some kind of even relatable connection to these to these generals, to these colonels, to to even William T Ranney, the artist, to not paint these pictures like ohh, he's such a bad guy, he just he just put two and two together, he didn't take the time to think. But no, just to really think this is, this is in the late 17, early 1800s. Put yourself in his shoes. And he was trying to leave a mark on history just like how NPS is trying to do as well, but also trying to preserve people's thoughts and history in general.

Adrian: OK, cool.

William: I like that. I really like how you how you pointed out that yes, with our current research that we have, we know that the scene depicted in William Ranney's painting is is inaccurate, it’s Incorrect, but that doesn't make him wrong necessarily. He was acting on the best information he had at that time. Oh, I like that. Which, you know, kind of one more follow-up question about this whole topic of perception and kind of doing history. What do you imagine… this may be something that this may be something we have to cut out. What do you think may be something that you know 100 years… with talking about the America 250th anniversary. One kind of point of this these commemorations is it's the 250th anniversary since the declaration. Look how far we have come with how much we've done as a nation in those 250 years. Where are we going in the next 250 years? So what do you think may be something for example 100 years from now, 2030… I'm sorry, that's wrong.

Adrian: 2123.

William: Yeah, 100 years from now, 2123. What is something that you think maybe has changed with the park interpretation? With how we are telling and sharing these stories?

Cassie: These are these are just great questions.

William: Or what is something that you would hope to see different?

Cassie: I would hope to see different… hmm… I would hope to see different maybe like different optimisms, I I would say. Definitely more curiosity into this as well. A lot, a lot of people that are eager to understand something, to learn more, because his history cannot be erased. But to learn more, more even more research and yeah.

William: So kind of that constant progression of constantly always looking for new places, always looking for more information to add to get that fuller understanding of the stories. Something that I think would be really need to see is kind of a shift away from the great man theories.

Cassie: Hmm.

Adrian: Hm, yeah.

William: There's so much focus on the commanders and the generals, which of course is important and it will never be removed, umm, but the addition of something like you were saying, Cassie, of the the people and their kind of the wholeness of their person. So not only are we gonna talk about like, for example with the Overmountain Victory Trail, we're not just gonna talk about the Overmountain leaders and Patrick Ferguson, let's talk about Patrick Ferguson when he was a kid. Let's talk about the, some examples of the enlisted men, of the men on the line, the boots on the ground and more about who they were as a person, not just their role at the battle. It's like you're saying better understand where they're coming from. Understand their perspective, their perception better, along with just the commanders. It's something I think would be really neat to see moving forward.

Cassie: I agree.

Stewart: I'm kind of along the same lines. I've always like, like you said, you can't completely, you can't take out the leaders and everything. That's always gonna be important. But I've always found the little man interesting, or the the support, you know the women, the ones that… the untold stories we've been saying that a lot the last, like couple months, years. But it's true, those, those stories of the people that were maybe not playing the role of the leader, but were supporting and, you know, just trying to live their lives, that type of stuff. I’ve always found fascinating.

William: Yeah, a general, can't do a lot without the guys in the army.

Adrian: Exactly.

Cassie: True, that's true.

Adrian: Well, I've always, when I was in high school, I would always be like, OK, well, just because he's king, he can't be king if he doesn't have the nation to rule and that nation is made up of all these little peons like.

Cassie: Agreed.

William: I’m gonna go declare myself king of my garage. Kingdom of one. Well, fantastic. Well, you know, thanks so much, Cassie, for sitting down and talking with us about the HBCUI program, about your internship at Cowpens National Battlefield. If you want to learn a little bit more about where Cassie has been working, Cowpens National Battlefield, you can check them out at w w w.n p s.gov/ C O W P, and Cassie what would be a good a good contact a good place for people who maybe want to learn more about the Greening Youth Foundation and about the HBCUI program?

Cassie: Absolutely. Again, you can go on to their website, w w w.greeningyouth.gov, no, .org, excuse me. And you can find as much information about that as well.

William: Great. Well, that's gonna wrap up this episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern theater of the American Revolution. I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: I’m Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic site.

William: So thank you all for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and we’ll see y’all next time we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: Bye!

[sounds of musket shots, soldiers shouting, and horses running]

William: Hey everyone, and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

[sound effects of musket shots, men shouting, and horses running]

William: I’m Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I’m Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site. William: Together we will explore some of the well-known and not so well known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to make the history.

[sound effects of musket shots, men shouting, and horses running]

William: So today we are joined with Ranger Adrian again, and we’re gonna be diving into some really cool stories. I’m excited to hear about this, something that maybe not a lot of historians know about here in the southern theater, here in South Carolina, and that is the Snow Campaign. So welcome Ranger Adrian!

Adrian: Thank you!

William: So let’s start out with the really cool name. Not every military campaign gets a snappy little title like this, the Snow Campaign. Can you tell us why that is and kinda start setting the scene for us.

Adrian: Yeah, so the Snow Campaign happens after the battle at Ninety Six, almost directly after, by December right around Christmas. The Snow Campaign happens, the battle happens, and just after the battle when everybody’s marching back to Charleston it decides to snow. And it snow almost two feet in thirty, thirty hours straight. So, that’s unusual in South Carolina even at that point in time.

William: Right, ‘cause you are looking at this happening, this, this era, during the Little Ice Age.

Adrian: Mhmm.

William: So it was a little bit cooler, it was a little more snowy and icy. But yeah, you said thirty, I’m sorry, two, no, two feet in thirty hours?

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Yes, that, I think that’s definitely a good monicker. The battle of the blizzards, the snow campaign, something like this; gotta be catchy. So you’re saying this is happening after the Battle of Ninety Six, and this is the first battle, November 19th through 21st, 1775 correct?

Adrian: Right. So, that battle happens, and if you remember during the agreements, cessation of arms, part of the agreement is, and quote “should any reinforcements arrive to Major Williamson or Major Mayson, they also shall be bound by the cessation.” Apparently this does not happen, because we end up with the Snow Campaign. And the Snow Campaign is led by Colonel Richard Richardson. He had been marching into the backcountry while the battle at Ninety Six was going on. At first he did not know the battle was going on, but when he learns about it he kinda changes his direction, crosses the Congaree River, and heads to Ninety Six hoping to make it to Ninety Six in time to bring relief to Major Andrew Williamson. Of course we know he does not make it. And then when he finds out that the battle is over, and finds out that this agreement, this peace treaty, has been made, he brings in a council of war and they debate “do we qualify for this agreement? Are we to be held to it?” And they all decide that no, they’re not held to it, even though they’re supposed to be reinforcements for Williamson. William: And now to clarify, we’re looking at the patriot forces here, the rebels, the whigs, the congress-men…

Adrian: Right.

William: Okay.

Adrian: Right. Yeah.

William: So how big is Richardson’s column that he’s he’s marching with? Like how close did he cut it to getting there to the siege of Ninety Six in time to relieve the besieged patriots and chase off the tories?

Adrian: Um, he’s, he’s at least a week if not more behind schedule [laughs]

William: Oh wow.

Adrian: But, yeah, but he does have a pretty large group of men and it just keeps growing. Early in his march after he crosses the Congaree he has around 1,500. By the end of the Snow Campaign in late December it has grown to around 3,000. And these men are coming from all areas of South Carolina, but also he has 500 men from North Carolina that join him. So not all South Carolinians.

William: So you’re looking at a massive army of Patriot reinforcements…

Adrian: Mhmm.

William: Led by, I’m assuming, a pretty powerful and influential officer, arriving in the backcountry, just as they have missed the first battle in the southern theater. They have just missed the Battle of Ninety Six.

Adrian: Right.

William: And they decided that they are not held by the peace treaty, even though they kinda fall under that definition of reinforcements to arrive, what’s going to be their course of action? Um.

Adrian: Right.

William: I think we talked about back in the Ninety Six episode that the loyalists do hold to this treaty and do disband, um, so now here is Richardson in a region with no real mobilized forces to contend him: what is he going to do now?

Adrian: Right. Yeah. So, and I did want to mention that Richardson, he was born sometime around 1704 so he’s one of the older influencers in the area, and he was in the Anglo-Cherokee wars back in the 1760s, so he’s, he’s had a lot of experience and had time to you know grow that influence. But he and his men decide that “you know what? We just need to put an end to this loyalist uprising” basically. And they decide that they’re going to start capturing loyalist leaders and any other people who may oppose them. So they begin kinda rounding them up. Colonel Fletchall is one of the first loyalists, major loyalist leaders that they are able to take prisoner. There’s kind of conflicting stories on how he’s captured. One story says that he, his house was surrounded by like 300 men and he was taken there, and then another one, at least in Richardson’s letters Henry Laurens, says that he was captured from a cave where he was hiding. But they capture Fletchall, they capture Pearis, um, and some other leaders before they even really truly get started in the campaign. By December 2nd, they’re camping across the Saluda River, in that area where the Broad River joins in, at a place called McLaurin’s Store. And this is where Richardson issues a proclamation a couple days later, um, with what his plans are and what he wants all the locals to do. So the proclamation basically demanded that the local inhabitants hand over any one who had participated in the taking of the supply wagon that kind of started the battle of Ninety Six, and then who also participated in the Battle of Ninety Six. Primarily, they're focus being Patrick Cunningham, Henry O'Neill, Hugh Brown, David Russ and Nathaniel Howard and Henry Green, but other ones were, you know, commanded or wanted as well. But those were the most prominent people. After that he sits around and waits to see if anybody's gonna follow those instructions, if anybody's going to hand them over or tell them where they're at and during that time he is joined by several other regiments, a total of 550 men. At that point, and then he also gets word that the regiments from North Carolina are coming down to join them, so his ranks are really starting to swell. On December 12th that's when we know that his force has grown to around 3,000 men and they are at this point near the great survey line or the Cherokee border. That border was around like the Greenville, what is Greenville County today, that part of South Carolina.

William: So, so real quick, I was just about, I was thinking about that.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: You're talking about being McLaurin’s Store and being joined by these North Carolinians. You mentioned the area where the Saluda joins the Broad, about, yeah, about where do we think this camp may have been today?

Adrian: So I'm not positive on that one. I do have kind of a better idea of where the actual when they end up having the battle where the battle was located.

William: So what you're talking about being near the survey line, the Cherokee boundary line, I believe that it's been identified as kind of Greer, SC today kind of between Greenville County to the west and Spartanburg County to the east that that was part of that boundary line.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So assuming somewhere around there may have been this camp?

Adrian: Somewhere around there. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a pretty long line. But yeah, I think somewhere in that Greer - Greenville area.

William: OK.

Adrian: Well, like I said, by this point he has captured some of the loyalist leaders, but he really I think he really is wanting Cunningham, honestly. He's kind of the one to stir all the problems up. On December 16th Richardson's men are camps near Camp Liberty, which is on the Enoree River, and they get word that Richard Pearis's son and some others have gone to the Cherokee and they are trying to get the Cherokee to support their side and the loyalist side. But they are unsuccessful. That's probably good for Richardson, but probably good for the Cherokee as well. I mean, 3,000 men is a lot.

William: Right.

Adrian: And then finally on December 21st, Richardson actually kind of splits up his army. He sends a detachment of around 1,300 under the command of Colonel Thomas Ford, past the line. They marched 23 miles not directly into the line, but kind of along the line on the other side of the line, and they finally come across the loyalist camp. There are about 200 loyalists in this camp, including Patrick Cunningham. Um, they're able to sneak up on them, and so at night, they sneak up, circle around. The plan is to attack at daybreak. Before they can completely circle around, before daybreak, they are kind of discovered early in the morning. Umm, but it's, they’re still pretty well surrounded or the loyalists are pretty well surrounded. However, it does give enough warning for Patrick Cunningham to escape. But even with him escaping around 130 of those 200 men are captured.

William: Goodness.

Adrian: Yeah, it's a pretty devastating capture. Uh, kind of, I guess, funnily, funny, Richardson writes in his letter to Henry Laurens that, yeah, the alarm alerted Patrick Cunningham, who was able to escape on a bare back horse. And then he writes kind of in parentheses, without his breeches. So it's kind of a interesting mental image.

William: Can’t even get dressed, running for your life…

Adrian: Uh-huh.

William: …in December, into a cane break or something, my goodness.

Adrian: Yeah. And he's and while he's running, Cunningham is basically telling everybody, you know, fend for yourself, run if you can, get out of here, there's no way we're gonna stand up against all these men. I mean 200 against 1,300, that's pretty, pretty slim numbers.

Adrian: A lot of people are captured, but as far as wounded and killed go, there's, of the loyalist of the 200 loyalists that were in the camp, 6 to 7 of them were killed and then of course, the 130 captured. And then on the patriot side, there was only one man killed and that was the son of Colonel Polk from North Carolina. So Thomas, and his men, Colonel Thomas and his men returned to the main force as soon as that battles over, they've got their prisoners. And it's almost as soon as they get back to the main camp is when it starts to snow. And like I said it's, at the beginning, it snows 30 hours, this is December 23rd, so right before Christmas Eve and blankets everything in at least 2 feet of snow. Unfortunately nobody is prepared for this weather. Nobody has really good clothing, clothing is scant, shoes are falling apart, nobody has tents, so a lot of men end up with frostbite and some end up with frostbite so bad that they lose the use of some of their extremities. Private Hugh Allison, who was on the Patriots side, lost all normal use of his fingers to the point where he could no longer hold a sword or fire a gun. And so for the rest of the war, he served as a “horse doctor” and also sometimes even stepped in and tended wounded men. So some people were permanently scarred from this campaign without without battle. A lot of people, actually. William: This is one of those stories that it's heart rending to hear, but it's really important that we that we talk about this because so often we think about the American Revolution in the context of the battles…

Adrian: Right.

William: …the fighting that was done, the violence, the bloodshed without remembering that just surviving in some of these conditions and locations, just surviving itself was the battle. It was not only man versus man, but it was man versus nature.

Adrian: Right, nature.

William: And this is this is an amazing example of this. I'm a little hesitant; I'm trying to imagine myself being sick or wounded, and here comes the doctor, who I know can't even pick up a sword or work a rifle…

Adrian: I know!

William: And he's the one who's gonna be tending to me. Hopefully he's doing something not delicate.

Adrian: Hopefully he's making, like poultices or something.

William: Applying a nice soft bandage or something.

Adrian: Yeah, yeah.

William: Uh, do we have any idea where the surviving loyalists, the escaping loyalists, Cunningham included, they're, they're tearing off, they’ve escaped…

Adrian: Right.

William: And this is the Battle of the Great Cane Break, correct?

Adrian: Yeah, yes.

William: Do we have any idea where they going?

Adrian: Yeah, so the battle actually the cane breaks were on the just right at the northern reaches of the Enoree River in what is now southern Greenville County, and they end up heading farther into the Cherokee territory, and then a lot of them will end up going into the Florida area. So when we get to Florida, we might hear some names that we've talked about previously.

William: And it's so funny because you're talking about these locations and you're looking at a pretty small scale we're talking about.

Adrian: Yeah. William: Oh, they gathered up where the the Broad and the Saluda Rivers meet, they're going up along the Enoree River. We're talking about a not huge geographic area, it's covered by one or two counties, and then you just drop that in there, “Yeah, and they're gonna make their way eventually to Florida.”

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Talk about a scale change. These guys are again tearing off into the woods in a cane break in December on a horse with no pants, and he's gonna try and pick up supplies and clothing…

Adrian: I would hope.

William: I am assuming some local people are helping them, other loyalist refugees are gathering together. You do see this big, I don't wanna call it a migration, but this big diaspora, this big kind of spread of loyalist refugees…

Adrian: Right.

William: …into anywhere that they can be safe, including a lot making their way all the way down to Pensacola or Saint Augustine. So hopefully some of them had some mixture extra threads for them because my goodness.

Adrian: Oh, I know.

William: I'm sure that snowstorm was not localized. Okay, so we're looking at big patriot victory, not a lot of bloodshed, but a massive blow to any efforts of the loyalist to organize themselves.

Adrian: Right.

William: Where are they gonna take all these prisoners? Do we know what Richardson is gonna do with these guys now that it's snowing as well?

Adrian: Yeah. So Richardson, now that it's snowing on Christmas Day, he dismisses the North Carolina regiments. So they can go home. And he also dismisses a large portion of the South Carolina regiments. The rest he will continue on with and they will march back to Charleston, taking all the prisoners with them. Before they start marching, however, he does make the majority of the prisoners sign a document stating that if they take up arms against the provincial government again or disrupt the peace that they are going to end up forfeiting their property. So they sign that and then he chains them, handcuffs them, and they all start marching towards Charleston. Snow is still there. The snow sticks around for about 7 days. The only reason the snow melts is that it starts to rain and sleet. So it's still cold, it's just not quite freezing when it's doing that. And the rain and sleet starts to melt the snow. And then of course, you've got the problems of the rivers start swelling and unlike today, we don't have a lot of bridges, so crossing rivers during that time can be very difficult. But they are finally able to make it back to the Santee area and once they make it back to the Santee area, Richardson dismisses even more of his of his troops and they continue and send the rest of the prisoners to Charleston. Thomas Fletchall is actually put in prison in Charleston and he will stay in prison until July of 1776. So he's he's in prison for what, a good 6-7 months?

William: Do we know where they're being held in Charleston?

Adrian H: There was a jail down in Charleston, but I don't know that it would hold that many people.

William: Okay, so because I know that when Richard Pearis is arrested, he's describes being jailed in the kind of the the dungeon under the Customs House.

Adrian: Ah yeah, that makes sense.

William: Which you can still visit and tour today.

Adrian: Yeah. Yeah.

William: And he's gonna be held there kind of the same as Fletchall until the the summer of ‘76.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: And I think he says that it's when the the the Cherokee War begins, he finally agrees to take the oath of allegiance and go out to the frontier to see how he can help try to keep the peace. So possibly some of their some of some guys are in those areas.

Adrian: Probably.

William: So we're looking at 130 guys captured here at the cane break. Do we have any idea how many prisoners Richardson ends up with total bringing back from this campaign?

Adrian: It's around, it's not much more than 130. I think it's like 136, maybe 140 somewhere in that area. Like I said, he had captured a few, but it was only really just about a handful or two before the cane break.

William: But even though it's not a huge number, you have to think of some of the personalities that he's been able to arrest. You mentioned Fletchall, Cunninghams on the run, he's taken Pearis.

Adrian: Right.

William: Richard Pearis, not the city.

Adrian: Yeah!

William: So you're looking at even though it's not…

Adrian: Yeah, if you're from the Greenville area, Paris Mountain is named for him, yeah.

William: Right, yes, Richard Pearis, I think there's a great information about him right there in downtown Greenville.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: I believe that's the, that's the part of the Reedy River where he actually had his home and his trading post. So you're looking at, not necessarily the numbers being what crushes the loyalist organization, but it's the leadership, it's the loss of these key figures.

Adrian: Yeah, it's all your leaders are pretty much gone. I mean by that by the time at the of the end of the Snow Campaign, other than Cunningham being on the run, there's really, really only one major loyalist leader left, and that's Thomas Brown, at least in the South Carolina - Georgia area. And he's not going to stick around terribly long.

William: Right. I believe we mentioned Cunningham making his way down to Florida eventually. I know Brown does as well.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Just because there is no opportunity to try and organize anyone because of how scattered or defeated or captured they are.

Adrian: Right.

William: Because of Richardson. Because of this campaign, because of this massive mobilization of thousands of armed men.

Adrian: Right.

William: Uh, that kind of answers one question I had is kind of the aftermath. What do we see happening in this region in the aftermath of this campaign?

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Is there anything else that we need to add to kind of paint the picture?

Adrian: So there, yeah, there are actually some changes that come into effect. So from the time Richardson gets back to about late February, there is a system of disarming anybody else who may be, you know, rebelling against the new government. But finally that ends in February, and the area is divided into three electoral districts, as well as military regimental divisions. And so that division and being divided like that kind of gives that area that previously had very little representation, gives them some more representation with the new government. The area is also allowed to regulate their own local issues. Governmental issues. So you know, some of the complaints that had previously been reasons for people to to be loyal to the Crown are maybe not completely taken care of, but they're starting to be maybe understood, and hey, maybe we should give more representation to some of these people in the back country in this new government. So I think that kind of helps, and it kind of does, I think help along with having all your loyalists run out and tamped down. But I think it does kind of help somewhat keep the peace, at least until the Southern Campaign starts.

William: Right now I want to touch on something that you mentioned too about getting more of that representation in the backcountry. Because when you're looking at the American Revolution and it's beginning here in 1775, prior to the revolution, the the seat of power is Charleston…

Adrian: Yeah.

William: …that is the capital, both the seat economically, socially, but the seat of government is Charleston. And the representation is very much Charleston.

Adrian: Yes.

William: This is going right back to the regulator movement in the 1760s of the lack of government, the lack of law and order, the lack of representation in the backcountry compared to the low country.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So I think, how much do you think is this, this getting more government, this creating these new districts in the West, is this trying to convince the backcountry to join this side, or is it simply trying to cut things up smaller pieces so they're easier to organize?

Adrian: Probably a combination of both. [laugh]

William: Right. And I'm I'm thinking back as well. You mentioned all the prisoners that Richardson takes. I recall coming across a document. It was a list of some of the names…

Adrian: Yeah, I actually, yeah.

William: and I believe he uses the term “scovilite.”

Adrian: Yes.

William: Have you come across this?

Adrian: So I do actually have that list been one somewhere in here. There is a book, well, it's actually a series of three books, called Documentary History of the American Revolution and volume one covers the Battle of Ninety Six and, the first Battle of Ninety Six, and the Snow Campaign. But that's from 1764 to 1776 and it's documents from that time period. But that list is somewhere in this book. But yeah, so I tried looking it up and what I got is that it was basically a derogatory term for a somebody who was loyalist, but the patriots were kind of saying that they were lawbreakers and and scallywags and stuff like that. So it is somewhat like they're trying to deface somebody's name.

William: Yes. So fun trivia, going back to when the regulators mobilized…

Adrian: Yeah.

William: …and they come near 4 or 5,000 men threatening to march on the governor in Charleston, and he raises the Moderators, the militia, to combat these vigilantes…

Adrian: Right.

William: He commissions a John Scovil to be one of their colonels.

Adrian: Yes.

William: And apparently he was not the most up and up individual. Apparently there were a few instances of him trying to swindle and cheat people, but yeah, so this is you see this, this derogatory nickname, Scovillite, because of his name to his men who opposed the Regulators. And I've always loved how here you are, a couple years later, with these guys, especially Richardson, given his status given his age, I'm sure he was a leading figure in the Regulator movement…

Adrian: Oh I’m sure.

William: …and now here you have him using this same derogatory Regulator war term for his loyalist prisoners.

Adrian: Right.

William: So maybe it's some of those same people. Maybe he's he recognizes them.

Adrian: Right could be.

William: Or maybe he just sees the similarities. Or he just figures, well, they're fighting us, they're nothing but a bunch of Scovillites.

Adrian: Right.

William: Uh, let's bring it back, guys. 18th century revolutionary slang. Scovillite is gonna be hitting the streets any day now. So some really cool comparisons with how you see the Regulator war shape the early years of the revolution here in South Carolina. The the use of some of these terms, some of the divisions of who's gonna be on what side, and then even the push to get more representation in the back country to give the the frontier settlers something that the British crown or at least the the British government in Charleston, had been unable to do earlier. Really interesting.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Now I've got one of the questions for you, Ranger Adrian

Adrian: Okay.

William: We're looking at this, we kind of wrap, we - I think we put a pretty good bow on the Snow Campaign.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: We looked at some of the aftermath and all that, some of the big individuals. What other connections can we find in this? When we're looking at this story, those who are involved and the situation that they've created in the Southern Theater, where else can we see some connections to other parts of our history, of our story?

Adrian: Right. So we've already basically said that we'll probably see Brown, Thomas Brown, and some of the other loyalists in the when we get to Florida. But on the Patriot side, a lot of the men, Richardson included, they end up at down in Charleston at the Battle of Sullivans Island in, what is that, June 1776.

William: Mhm.

Adrian: So they're they're getting some action a little later on. And then, well, some of them, you’ll actually see maybe at some of the other battles, some of the larger battles, not all of them, but there's still some names out there that that'll be mentioned. You know, Snow campaign really wraps up the early part of the war for the most part other than, I guess, the Battle of Sullivan’s Island. But it wraps up the backcountry early-war period almost in a nice bow. And you don't get much going on back here until you get the fall of Savannah and the British forces start working their way inland much later in the war.

William: Right, because you've seen just such a scattering of loyalist leaders. Such a disheartening, I imagine, just disheartening patriot victory for the loyalists that there it's gonna be a while until they feel like they're supported enough, confident enough to try again to try and revitalize their campaign.

Adrian: Right.

William: You do see the loyalist refugees are gonna be involved in the Cherokee War there in that summer of ‘76, around the same time the British are attempting to attack along the coast, but as far as large internal campaigns, large groups of loyalists, large groups of patriots chasing each other, yeah, not until the British Army really comes back and gives them something to rally around, are you gonna see this part of South Carolina getting involved again.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Thank you so much Adrian for telling us all about this, sharing with us this large, big military campaign here in December of 1775, the Snow Campaign aptly named for that 2 feet of snow in 30 hours. And that's going to conclude another episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So to learn more about the American Revolution and our home National Park sites, you can check out www.nps.gov/N I S I for Ranger Adrian and Ninety Six National Historic Site and www.nps.gov/O V V I for me, Ranger William and Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. So thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and we'll see ya’ll next time when we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: Bye! [sounds of musket shots, soldiers shouting, and horses running]

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

[sounds of musket shots, horses, men shouting]

William: I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site. William: Together, we're going to explore some of the well known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to make the history.

William: Now, today we are joined by a special guest uh, Rob Holmes, Park Ranger from Kings Mountain National Military Park. Rob, thanks for joining us.

Rob: Yeah, no problem. Happy to be here.

William: So to kind of start things out for people who aren't familiar, maybe with the Battle of Kings Mountain, let's start with a little bit of geography. Where would you say Kings Mountain is located today, but also in this idea of the Southern Theater of the war? What were some landmarks in the Revolution that might help place this on the map?

Rob: Yeah, sure. So today in 21st century, we are right along the border between North and South Carolina about 40 miles, roughly west of Charlotte, not in North Carolina, as people often assume because of Kings Mountain, North Carolina, which is a town, city now, that was founded, founded long after the battle was fought here. So geographically I would call this area the Piedmont. Not quite all the way as far West as the the mountains, definitely not in the low country area. We're in that sort of transitional area geographically where you've got these old rolling hills that were carved by the various streams and rivers over the millennia.

Adrian: Alright. So what are some of the areas or landmarks that were there during the battle that people might recognize today? Is there anything?

Rob: During the battle, it's hard to say. Not a whole lot, quite frankly. This was an area that in the well in the terms of South Carolina's colonial history, had really been acquired fairly recently, at the time of the battle, around a generation or so earlier. There were some small scattered farmsteads and farmhouses, but not a whole lot of other major landmarks. Probably the most important thing that was here at that time was the road that ran through to what was then known as Charlottetown, today, of course, that being the city of Charlotte. Other than that, you had a few fords of the the rivers, but not a whole lot of other landmarks, unless you count the mountain itself.

Adrian: OK. So when was this? When in the war was this battle taking place?

Rob:So the Battle of Kings Mountain is fought in October, it's the 7th of October in 1780, so fairly later on in the war than most people think of. A lot of the times when we're thinking of the American Revolution, of course we know those dates like 1775 or 1776. Of course, being the battles of Lexington and Concord and then later on the Declaration of Independence. But this is a war that goes well beyond that. It doesn't officially end until 1783 so we're, in terms of the overall length of the war, fairly close to the middle but long after the period of time that most of us are familiar with.

Adrian: Awesome. So it was a pretty nice time of year, right?

Rob: Eh, it depends on what your definition of nice time of year is. It had rained the night before the battle, so it was probably fairly soggy and for some of the groups of the Patriot militia men who fought during the battle like the over the mountain men when they were making their way down here to the battle, they had actually crossed over snow covered mountains at the time. So this is a, it's a bit of a trek, the distance that they cover, so they're gonna go through a wide range of different seasonal weather experiences, shall we say. I believe it was also fair to say that it was probably much cooler at that time than it is today.

William: OK, Rob. So we we understand a little bit of kind of where we're talking about with the Battle of Kings Mountain. We're looking at October 7th, 1780. Who are gonna be some of the the the big figures, the big players involved in the story of your battle? Rob: Sure. So you've got the two different sides who are gonna fight. You've got the Loyalists and the Patriots. And for those of you who are not familiar with them, the Loyalists are, of course, or those colonial folks from the colonies who decided they wanted to remain loyal to the king. And then the Patriots, of course, are those from the colonies who wanted to get independence and create their own nation. So on the loyalist side, and probably the most famous participant in the battle, is their commander, and that's a major Patrick Ferguson. Some places you'll see in refer to as Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel. He had been promoted prior to the battle. But the new Commission hadn't received. He hadn't received that yet, so his official rank was still a major at the time. And he was really kind of a famous guy. He was known as the best marksman in the British Army. He had invented his own breechloading flintlock rifle by improving upon some existing technology to create a weapon that was capable of much higher rates of fire and much greater accuracy than your standard infantry weapons of the day. He had a long military career having served in Europe during the Seven Years War, that's the French and Indian War for us over here, he'd also served in the West Indies against a putting down an insurrection that had happened there, and then prior to the Battle of Kings Mountain, he had also taken part in the Battle of Brandywine, outside of Philadelphia in 1778. So he was probably the most famous individual on the field of battle. Amongst the Loyalists, there were a few other officers of note who are not nearly as well known as Ferguson is, but they've left us Diaries and letters and other records, so they're very key witnesses to the battle itself. I'm Speaking of the surgeon, Uzal Johnson, Captain Depeyster, who ended up being Ferguson's second in command, and then another individual named Alexander Chesney, who left a very detailed diary account of his time in the Southern campaign. Again, although not nearly as well known as Ferguson, these are important individuals on the loyalist side. Now, on the other side, you have the Patriots and the Patriots are going to have an army that consists of a number of different militia companies, formations that are all gonna come together. So you have kind of a “who's who” of various frontier militia commanders. Their overall commander is a guy by the name of William Campbell from Virginia. He is going to have a very active career both at Kings Mountain and then later on he will he will die he will succumb to a disease at the Battle of Yorktown. So he's gonna be an important individual. Then you've got a Colonel Sevier, Isaac Shelby, James Williams, Benjamin Cleveland all of these other very important commanders were gonna pay play their own role in the course of the battle, many of whom will have had long careers in the the frontier of the Carolinas as well as what's today, Tennessee, Kentucky, very active for a long time.

Adrian: So I know will and I have talked a little bit about some of the stuff leading up to the battle since he's, you know, representing the Overmountain Victory Trail, but can you tell us about some of the events that led up to this battle?

Robert: Sure, of course. Brief overview from the very beginning, of course. Charleston falls in spring late spring of 1780. There are other attempts. General Gates comes down with an second Continental Army and is decisively defeated at the Battle of Camden in August of 1780. And from that point on, organized resistance in South Carolina has pretty much collapsed. The Continental Army has been badly, badly being driven from the field, what's left of it is regrouping in Hillsborough in North Carolina. And there's not really any organized resistance left in South Carolina. So in response to this, any resistance to the British invasion, the British forces, is that at this point, going to rely on partisans on militiamen. So it becomes this guerilla conflict, and you've got very skilled famed leaders on both sides. You've got of course, for the Patriots Francis Marion, you've got a General Sumter. You've got other famous loyalists like Christian Huck, who's eventually defeated later on. But it's this very fierce, this very brutal partisan warfare. And the British very much have the upper hand because of their professional soldiers. They have to disperse their strength a little bit, but these professional soldiers do give them an edge and while they are able to hold this territory, Patrick Ferguson is made the inspector of militia and he is tasked with organizing the King's friends, the Loyalists, the Loyalists militia in South Carolina so that the professional British Army under Lord Cornwallis can begin marching north into North Carolina and from there into Virginia. And Ferguson is very successful in this, by all accounts. According to the returns, he's got some 4,000 men who are going to sign up under him. He has a forced directly under him that, depending on which source you look at, is gonna range somewhere between 900 to 1,100 men, which is a sizable force for the period. You'd be hard pressed outside of Charleston to find a lot of communities with populations, even that were much greater than 1,000 people. So this is a this is a large body of troops that he's moving along. And with Ferguson in the field with this strong body of loyalist militiamen, Cornwallis feels that he is secure enough to begin his push into North Carolina, and he sets up really a three pronged approach. He's got one wing of his army that's going to march to Wilmington, NC, to open up a line of communication to the sea. The Royal Navy is gonna be able to bring in supplies. Our, I should say our roads and our infrastructure back in 1780 were appalling where they existed so much easier for him to bring supplies into Wilmington rather than to try to bring them cross country from Charleston or from Camden even then. So Cornwallis himself will be marching to Charlottetown, which falls to him with some minor skirmishing, but not really much resistance on the part of the Patriots. And then Patrick Ferguson is sweeping up on his left, along the frontier. And Ferguson, he'd been having a frustrating summer, shall we say, trying to chase around these much smaller bands of Patriot militiamen. One of the things that comes up here that makes the story of the Battle of Kings Mountain so fascinating is that when the battle takes place, a good portion of the Patriot forces are not even really on the radar of the British. They're more focused on General Sumter and his men. He's the one who they see as as the big threat. He's active in the area south of Charlotte, the Waxhaws along that border area there, and he's the one that they're focusing on because he's the one who's the the greater threat to their supply lines and their lines of communication. They were not really expecting to get this huge response from the Backcountry militias and the the folks from the overmountain regions that they end up getting. And this is where the story gets kind of a little bit mythical, legendary, shall we say, depending on the version of events that you wanna get. There's a strong tradition that a frustrated Patrick Ferguson sends a letter to the frontier communities in the Overmountain regions, basically telling them to knock off their support for the rebellion and to get back in line, or he's going to come out to their communities and subject them to fire and the sword and, you know, burn them down and cause all sorts of devastation. And depending on whose accounts you read, it's unclear if that letter was actually sent or not. Uh, you know, it's a great story either way, but, nonetheless, however, they come about it, the folks from the Backcountry, the and the Overmountain regions well, they decide that they don't really like Ferguson and what he's been doing. They feel threatened by him and his presence, so they decide that they're gonna deal with him and a large body of these militiamen are gonna march down from all over the place, assemble a sizable force, and they're coming from everywhere. You've got contingents from Georgia. You've got contingents from Virginia, largest contingents, of course, coming from the Carolinas. And the most famous contingent being the over the mountain men from western North Carolina, western Virginia and what's today, Tennessee. Of course, like I said, the most famous participants, they're gonna account for about half of the Patriot troops that are gonna be involved in the actual battle itself. Some of those over the mountain men, the guys from Virginia, are going to march along a trail that's some 330 miles long. So they're coming from quite a long distance to give you an idea of just how serious they took the threat posed by Ferguson and his troops. Now in the 18th century, the sort of security keeping things secret, you know very hard to do much like today. So Ferguson becomes aware that there is a large rebel force out there somewhere. He doesn't know exactly where they are, but he knows they're out there somewhere.

Adrian: They don’t have GPS.

Rob: Yeah, right. Right. Exactly, exactly. So because of this threat, he begins moving his forces back towards Charlotte, and that's where Cornwallis is with the main British Army. And he's gonna follow the roads, such as they were. And those roads are gonna take him right by Kings Mountain, which was a convenient place for him. It was a high piece of ground. There were a couple of springs of fresh water easily available. He's right on the road. And he's about 40 miles away from Charlotte. Which is a good day or two ride or March, depending on how you're going to get here. So he's got a good line of communication and he is gonna put his troops on top of Kings Mountain there, set up his encampment. He'll send a message to Lord Cornwallis, asking Cornwallis to send him Light Infantry and dragoons. Those are cavalry men because he wants to fight. He wants to fight and win. He doesn't necessarily want to fight at Kings Mountain. And that's something that we deal with a lot of people ask, you know, why was the battle here? Neither side was really planning on fighting a battle at Kings Mountain. They didn't set out to do that, especially not for Patrick Ferguson. For him, this is just a convenient place to encamp and await reinforcements. He wanted to get those Light Infantry and those cavalry men so that he could then march out, face this rebel army, crush them and then use the Light Infantry and the cavalry to run them down to pursue them across hill and dale and utterly destroy this force. Now that's what Patrick Ferguson is doing. The militiamen are gonna have kind of an interesting journey as they are making their way down, eventually towards Kings Mountain. You've got other units and groups of them coming in and linking up. Umm, they make an attempt to get into contact with the Continental Army at Hillsborough. They're looking for somebody to take command. They're looking for a commissioned officer to take command. There was a lot of concern. You've got all of these colonels and other high-ranking officers together from different states. So it wasn't exactly clear cut in the Patriot army who amongst them should have had command. They don't get a Continental Army officer, so eventually they select William Campbell on the grounds that he's coming the furthest, he has the largest single body of troops under his command, and he's in Virginian, so they don't have to deal with any rivalry amongst the various commanders from North and South Carolina, possibly refusing to follow each other's orders out of personal grievance, ego, rivalry and things like that. So this is a very smart decision. They do almost get sidetracked at one point, there's some thought that Ferguson had actually gone down to Ninety Six, so they almost get diverted to go down there, though at the last minute they get actual intelligence that tells them that Ferguson is indeed on Kings Mountain. So they turn themselves around, march out after rather uncomfortable moment or day or so encamped at Cowpens. They get a picked force of around 900 to 1,000, every man who can be mounted, and from there they're going to March over to Kings Mountain where they will fight the battle.

Adrian: So I have a question. Why is it called Kings Mountain? Is it named for the king?

Rob: It's an excellent question, not really named for the king. As best as we can figure, best as anybody's been able to find out, it was a name for a guy whose last name was King, so no connection to any King George or King William, any of those early English monarchs. Just a local sort of landowner, frontiersman whose last name was King and decided that this was his mountain.

Adrian: OK, makes sense.

William: And little did he know the questions he would cause centuries later.

Rob: Indeed, indeed.

William: So talking about the Battle of Kings Mountain, you've got all these frontiersmen these patriot groups coming together pursuing Ferguson. They find him on Kings Mountain. They attack. Is there a good way to lay out how the battle happened? Being such a a brawl? Is there a good way to approach and examine the fighting and also, do we know if the Ferguson rifle saw use at the Battle of Kings Mountain?

Rob: So I'll deal with your second question first about the Ferguson rifle. And that really depends on a whole lot of factors on what you feel qualifies as acceptable evidence. Ferguson’s rifle is gonna be used during the Battle of Brandywine in 1778. Ferguson is himself wounded in that battle. His unit of riflemen, which was a sort of a temporary formation at that time, is broken up. Those men are sent back to their original units, and from that point it's very unclear what actually happens to the Ferguson rifles, whether they were returned into the Ordinance stores, whether the men who went back to their original units kept them or just what exactly happened to them. Uh, Ferguson probably had some of them with him himself as his personal weapons, but he had maybe 100 to 200 manufactured, so it's unclear what exactly happened to all of them. Now, in the after in the aftermath of the battle itself, we don't have any direct sources, no records, no returns of captured arms, anything like that where they list Ferguson rifles, okay. Nonetheless, there have been some folks who have looked at other pieces of evidence. Some bullets recovered from the battlefield, the the cock or the hammer from a flintlock firearm, both of which have been identified as being a bullet fired from a Ferguson and the cock or the hammer of a Ferguson rifle. To me, that evidence personally isn't the smoking gun, no pun intended, to say with any certainty that the Ferguson rifle was both at the battle and used at the battle. And I think that's an important distinction that needs to be made, because it's quite possible, and, I would argue, likely even, that Ferguson would have had some of his rifles amongst his baggage. Whether those rifles were issued and then fired in anger during the battle is a different issue. In terms of why there is no record of them after the battle itself, my feeling is that while the Ferguson rifle was known to some people, it was not as well known amongst the general populace then as perhaps it is today. So it's quite possible that if a Ferguson rifle was recovered by one of these frontiersmen from the back country who didn't know what it was, who didn't know how to operate it because it's not the most intuitive firearm for loading and firing, they might have just looked at it and gone “Ohh this is broken” or this doesn't work and trashed it, used it for different parts or something like that. So I've hedged my answer in as many different ways as possible to avoid committing to any specific answer on this. I'd very much like to think that it was here and that it may have been used, but if it was used, it was certainly not in great enough numbers to have made any significant or had any significant impact on the battle As your second question, uh, how can we think of, how do we approach the battle itself. So Ferguson and his men are gonna be encamped on top of Kings Mountain. They had not made any efforts to fortify their position, not really circling the wagons, digging trenches, creating fences and things like that. They had posted some sentries, but these sentries really didn't do a very good job of letting them know that this force of patriots, of frontiersmen was approaching them. The Patriots are gonna approach Kings Mountain from the West, from the direction roughly of Cowpens National Battlefield today. They're going to arrive at a spot roughly a mile, 3/4 of a mile away from Kings Mountain. They will dismount off their horses. A small number of them will be left behind to watch the horses to make sure they don't get away, and then they're going to split themselves into two columns. And the reason why they're going to do this is because they're looking to encircle Kings Mountain to make sure that Ferguson and his forces have no way of escaping back to Charlotte, back to Cornwallis, to a place where they can be safe. So when they do this, they, of course, they don't have cell phones. They don't have walkie talkies. They don't have digital watches or things like that. So how do you coordinate 1,000 men getting in line, getting in position and arriving at the same place at the same time? So when the fighting begins, there's a 15 minute interval roughly between the point where the fighting begins and when the entire Patriot force is in position to be able to engage Ferguson and his loyalists. So the first thing that happens, they come into contact with the pickets with Ferguson’s sentries. Most of them appear to have been taken out nearly instantaneously without being able to be warned though eventually one is able to give the alarm and alert Ferguson and the loyalists that the Patriots are here. And that's really the first instant that which Ferguson becomes aware that this patriot force is this close to him. You recall what I said before he knew they were somewhere out there, but he didn't know where they were. Communications were very poor, and the Patriots had also, quite frankly, done a very good job of intercepting all of the messengers and all of the scouts who had gone out or had been trying to get into communication with him. So on our battlefield, if you follow our trail at the highest point really on Kings Mountain, you've got sort of a monument that's known as the Centennial Monument. And this is a stepped shaped, shaped monument kind of a rough obelisk shape, and it's on this end of Kings Mountain where the fighting is gonna begin. That's where the Patriots are gonna first come into contact with Ferguson's loyalists. Well, it takes the rest of them who have to go further all the way to get around on the other side of the mountain and then engage Ferguson's troops and they have some difficulties with this. There's one contingent under a Major Winston who actually charges up the wrong hill. Uh, which you can see. It's right behind our visitor center. There's a false rise where it rises up. And if you're standing at our visitor center looking out there, it looks like, oh, yes, that's of course, that's where Kings Mountain goes up. But if you go up on the top of it, it then goes down on the other side before rising once again to Kings Mountain. So Major Winston's patriot militia, they charge up this rise thinking that they're getting up to where the Loyalists are, arrived at the top of it and then realize ohh no we have to go down and up again. So like I said there were some there were some difficulties with getting everybody into position.

William: I have always wondered where that ridge was that I've heard about this false attack, so thank you for laying that out.

Rob: Yeah. And of course, absolutely. That's one of my favorite tidbits from the battlefield. Now, Ferguson does respond with energy and decisiveness into this attack, getting his men together and organizing them to defend Kings Mountain as much as they possibly can. However, the speed of the Patriot attack and the suddenness really puts him on the back foot into what he can actually accomplish. Amongst Fergusons forces is a sort of semi, well, it's fair to call them in elite unit on for this battle. This was 120 provincials. Now one of the things that makes this battle unique is that the only British soldier involved in the battle is Patrick Ferguson. Almost everybody else is an American. They’re somebody from the colonies, either somebody who immigrated here or somebody who was born here. The provincials were colonists who had joined the British Army to serve as professional soldiers, not as militia, but as professional soldiers, and most of them are gonna come from Connecticut and New Jersey, New York. They're from the northeast. One of the disadvantages of being a provincial, a loyalist, is that you served at the pleasure of the king. So whereas the Patriot militiamen get to serve in their local communities, the provincials they go where the king tells them to do. So Ferguson takes these professional soldiers, he has them fix bayonets and charged down the side of Kings Mountain to try and drive off the Patriot militiamen. Now today to us in the 21st century, we would look at this and go wow, that's ridiculous. Of course, that wasn't going to work. However, we have to look back and put ourselves in the shoes of those soldiers in the 18th century. Another thing that makes the Battle of Kings Mountain unique is that the soldiers are using a very large proportion of flintlock rifles along with their flintlock muskets. Now a flintlock rifle is a firearm with spiral grooves inside the barrel. It allows that weapon to fire a projectile that's going to go further, faster and more accurately. Now, the downside of this is that a flintlock rifle is much more expensive to make. The wooden stock is a lot weaker. And it can take up to a full minute to reload. Now your flintlock musket, which is your standard infantry arm, fires a much larger projectile. We're talking 69 to 75 caliber projectiles, so a very big bullet. It's not rifled, it's smooth bore, so it doesn't have the same level of accuracy. It has a range of between 150 to 300 yards, though you're not really ever going to have a distance where you can see 300 yards in the woods to shoot at something very effectively, so even that advantage between the two is kind of negated. And with the flintlock musket you can, well a well-trained soldier is gonna be able to load and fire in approximately 20 seconds. So with the rifle you're talking a well aimed shot with greater range and accuracy being delivered once a minute as opposed to the flintlock musket where you've got three to four rounds with less range, less accuracy, but a much higher rate of fire. The crucial difference between the two is that the musket can be fitted with a bayonet, and the rifle cannot, and that might not seem like a big deal. But if you're taking a full minute to reload your weapon, well, I can cover a lot of ground running at you in a full minute, especially when I've got a 6-foot long spear and I'm running at you downhill. So most people are not going to stand and let somebody come running at them with a 6-foot long spear, so charging at them in this way was actually a very effective tactic to create panic disorder and drive the patriots away down from Kings Mountain. Now, in this instance it didn't work out quite so well. The Patriots were numerous enough, their lines were elastic enough that they ran away when the provincials charged down the hill down Kings Mountain at them, down a gully up a ravine on the other side, and kept going. And in the meantime, the other militias and the other Patriots who weren't running away well, they were taking shots at those provincials and dropping them, and the provincials would charge down Kings Mountain, drive the Patriots away. Then they'd have to struggle back up Kings Mountain reform themselves. Of course, the Patriots are gonna come right back up to where they were. The provincials would then turn around, be ordered to deliver another bayonet charge, and so on and so forth. And they would repeat this three or four times. And each time they repeat this endeavor, more and more of those provincials are going to be disabled. They're going to be killed. They're gonna be wounded, and they're going to be no longer able to participate in the fighting. And as this plays out, of course, the rest of the Patriot units are moving into position. They're completing their ring around Kings Mountain, and they're fighting their way up the side. And eventually the Patriot units under Shelby, Sevier and Campbell are gonna be able to gain the heights of Kings Mountain, which at one end is fairly high and then it slopes down a couple 100 feet towards the other end. And once the Patriots get up to that high point, they're going to be able to deliver not only enfilading fire, but also defilading fire, which means that the Loyalists are taking fire from all sides and from a raised position down onto them. And they're gonna force the loyalists down into the smaller and smaller area on the lower end of Kings Mountain. And as this happening, they’re becoming more disorganized, more and more of these units of Patriot militiamen are coming into the battle. They're able to get involved, get themselves into the fight, and all order begins to break down amongst the loyalists. And many of them at this point are starting to try and surrender, Patrick Ferguson is having none of this. He's knocking down their white flags. He's throwing everything he can to rally his men. Eventually, he sees the things are not going well. He gathers every one of his officers together with him. Everybody who's got a horse, he gets 10 men mounted on their horses and he leads a charge at the patriot lines. And there's some debate here what exactly he was trying to accomplish. And it depends on what type of man you think he was. Some people will tell you that he was trying to break through the patriot lines to escape, to avoid capture. Like I said, he was the most famous individual on the field of battle. He was very well known and it would have been a big blow to the British operations in the Carolinas if he was captured. Others will tell you that he was trying to break through the patriot lines to lead his men out, to cause a breakthrough so that they could escape, which is also plausible. A guy on a horse riding at you with a 3 foot long saber is a very intimidating thing, especially when there’s more than one of them charging at you downhill. Most people are not going to stand, uh, stand still and let a horse run them over. You have to get a lot of training in the 18th century, before you were a soldier who's willing to do that. And you also have to have bayonets, which were kind of an expensive little bit of extra equipment that a lot of these militiamen probably didn't have because, like I said, they were expensive. And if you had a rifle, well, you couldn't use one with your rifle anyway. So why would you bother having that? Regardless of what Ferguson's intentions were, he's unsuccessful. The Patriot forces draw a bead on him and he goes down under a blaze of fire. There's nine men who claim to have shot him. His body is found to have been struck by 7 musket balls, so he is just shot down, as are most of the officers and the other mounted individuals who were with him. And once Ferguson is killed in this way, his second in command, captain DePeyster, realizes that always lost, and he will attempt to surrender. It takes him a couple of tries to get his surrender accepted in the heat of battle. With all of these different Patriot units working together, the command and control becomes a little jumbled, and they do shoot quite a few of the Loyalists who are attempting to surrender before their officers gain control of them, at the end of the battle.

Adrian: Okay. So Rob, what was the landscape like at the time? Like where there was it field, was it trees, what was it?

Rob: Well, when you come and visit the park today, it's kind of interesting. In a lot of ways, the landscape is simultaneously both very much like what you're gonna see and also nothing at all like you're gonna see. And what I mean by that is that it was a forested wilderness area, but not the forest of the type that you're going to see here. In 1780 they had an old growth forest, so we're talking enormous trees, hundreds of years old, very thick. These trees are gonna be very spread apart. There's not going to be much at all in the way of underbrush. And they're going to be tall enough that they create sort of a canopy over the terrain. If you think of like a rainforest canopy. Same sort of idea, though of course not with all of the the jungle animals and things like that. The forest that you're gonna see today is a new growth forest. So there are a lot of trees. They’re much younger, they're much smaller and there's a lot of underbrush that wouldn't have been there at the time of the battle. And then, of course, you also have to get rid of the very nice, well-maintained roads. Nothing like that would have been here at the time of the battle.

William: And I understanding as well is that when you're looking at the... after the war history of the park, you saw attempted farming and logging? I mean, what kind of changes has the park undergone to result in this new forest?

Rob: Sure. Yeah. Like you said, there was logging, there was farming. It's an area that's very close to Charlotte, but an area that's not going to be developed in quite the same way. And part of that has to do with the battle itself and its aftermath. Those who were killed are not buried particularly well, and the local animals, the wolves, the hogs, the dogs, foxes get in amongst those dead bodies and as a result the area develops a reputation as someplace that you don't necessarily want to be for a while. So it's not until some 30 years later really that there's somebody who comes back to try and do something on the battle field. In the meantime, there are some other attempts. We have the Howser House, which is a stone farm house built in the mid 1790s to try and do some farming in the area, and there's a few other farms that were established after that. But mostly farming and I'm going to say smaller scale agriculture for the area, not the large, enormous plantations that you'd see in the low countries, the low country rather, much smaller agriculture than that.

William: So bringing us back to the Revolution, I'm talking about the the after-effects. What do you see happen because of this battle? When you're looking at the Southern Theater of the war, how does Kings Mountain, how does this death of Ferguson, how does this Patriot victory change anything?

Rob: Well, it's a turning point, to be sure, because it creates a threat to Cornwallis's rear in South Carolina, to his control over the region, to his lines of communication and to his supplies. And this forces him to turn back his attention to South Carolina when he had been hoping to march further north across North Carolina and to Virginia. The tide the momentum has turned and he has to deal with this. And a few months after the Battle of Kings Mountain, you of course have the Battle of Cowpens with Daniel Morgan and Tarleton after their march, which is really not too far away from Kings Mountain, both in terms of time it being in January and Kings Mountain being in October and in geography. It's probably only 40 or so miles apart from each other. I think as the crow flies. So it's another large battle that happens in the same area. In the aftermath of Kings Mountain, the Patriot forces the Patriot cause in South Carolina has caused has a renewed optimism. You know, maybe we can win. Maybe it's not over. We can still win these impressive battles. So there's a shift in peoples perception of how viable victory is, how viable resistance can be. How viable this idea of creating this new country is possibly gonna be. There are those who were maybe sympathetic to the loyalists who are now gonna rethink their position. There are those who are sympathetic to the Patriots, who are now gonna say, hey, no more fence sitting. Let's get involved. Let's get in there. Let's fight. Let's resist. So it turns the tide. In terms of the military strength of British forces and patriot forces, it probably doesn't change that calculus too much. But what it does change is people's perception, and that's going to be key. We all probably heard that tired phrase, perception is reality. So by changing the way in which people perceive the campaign and how it's going, it changes the whole nature of the conflict.

Adrian: So, I know you mentioned one thing, but what are some of your favorite details about the battle and what do you think people should really see when they visit the park today?

Rob: So I'm a big military history person, especially 18th century military history. So the things of the battle that I find that are most interesting is that it's an infantryman’s fight. There's no cavalry, there's no artillery involved. You're seeing bayonets. You're seeing a flintlock rifles. You're seeing flintlock muskets and all of that together in this way is kind of unusual. I also enjoy uh I think that the the way this battle goes down, it's sort of this classic 18th century frontier warfare style in which one force is surprised and surrounded, and then has to fight it out. And this is gonna happen time and time and time again, all throughout the colonial period and the period of the early Republic before the Civil War as well. And you'll see it in Ohio, in Pennsylvania at places like Saint Clair's defeat on the Wabash, the largest proportional defeat ever suffered by the US Army in the 1790s. You'll see the same thing at the Battle of Bushy Run in Pennsylvania, where a group of British Highlanders get surrounded by Pontiac’s Native Americans. And actually, in that instance, managed to successfully fight their way out with their bayonets. So the similarities between all of these other battles, I think, is really fascinating along with the military technology that's involved. As for what people should see, well, first and foremost, let me let me push our visitor center because it is fantastic. We have a wonderful movie with a great theater where you can go and you can sit down, some amazing exhibits in our museum. We actually have one of those Ferguson rifles on display. Uh, unclear if this was in any way associated with the Battle of Kings Mountain, but it is an officer style or N C O style Ferguson rifle, and there's only about six or seven of those in the United States that I'm aware of. There might be a couple over in the U K, but there's only a handful of them anywhere, and we have one right here, so that's super special and you definitely don't want to miss that. Then of course, there's the battlefield, and we have so many monuments and memorials out there for all of the various commanders of the militia units who fought. We have our Centennial marker that I mentioned earlier. In the site where the British soldiers, the British, the Loyalists surrender we have the US Monument, which is really kind of a scale replica of the Washington Monument in DC. And that's really cool to me because I used to work in Washington, DC, and the actual Washington Monument in DC, the capstone at the very top of it is this aluminum pyramid, because when they made it, aluminum was a precious metal. And if you look at the top of our monument, you can actually see where they put a little bit of bronze up there to simulate that aluminum cap on the actual Washington Monument, which is just fascinating to me, it's those attention to details. And then notably, back in 2016, we added an African American Patriots memorial on the battlefield to the three known African Americans who fought in the battle. There were five total, though the other two, we've not been able to successfully track down the the the sources to say with the level of certainty that we wish we were able to say, and then there were possibly as many as 12, so it's nice that we were finally able to give them the recognition they deserve. However, the one monument that you absolutely don't want to miss is Patrick Ferguson's grave. When Patrick Ferguson was killed at the end of the battle, the Loyalists his men buried him at the foot of Kings Mountain. And he was really the only individual killed in the battle who was given a proper burial. Everybody else is buried in a very rushed manner. So for all of the others, the Patriots and the Loyalists, we don't really know where their remains ended up. Patrick Ferguson's we do. And there is a nice stone marker on it that was put in place in 1930 and it also has a large pile of stones and this is known as a cairn and it's a Scottish tradition where you would honor an important individual by creating a large pile of rocks on top of their burial place. Course here in the Carolinas we have a slightly different tradition about that pile of rocks, which is that those rocks are there to make sure that Patrick Ferguson stays in place right down there where he's supposed to be.

William: Gotta love those stories. Umm, so if someone was wanting to kind of follow up, learn a little bit more information about the Battle of Kings Mountain, what are kind of your top, top three recommended sources?

Rob: My top three recommended sources, that's an excellent question. So most of them are ones that you're gonna be able to find in the bookstore, in the visitor center. We have one called “Before they were Heroes,” which is very long book, but it tells the story of the men who fought at Kings Mountain from before the war, before the war began, to the immediate aftermath of the war. And that's probably your standard, your best source. There's the classic Buchanan’s “Road to Guilford Courthouse.” Buchanan, of course, being the big eminent historian of the Southern campaign. Umm. So that's one of the standard ones that I'd highly recommend as well. There's also one that was put out by Rutledge, the publishing company, I think in 2019, but it covers both the Battle of Kings Mountain and Cowpens. So it's “The battles of Kings Mountain and Cowpens.” But if you are a big into the military history aspect of it, as I am, you can just go to the US Army and they have put out a staff ride booklet that's only about 150 pages and will take you through the battle as it developed tactically from the perspective of somebody in the modern US armed forces. That one can, interesting, because you can purchase a copy of it and the US Army does also make it available in PDF format for free online.

William: Fantastic. Always good to know where we can get some more info. Thank you.

Rob: You're welcome.

[sound effects of muskets, drums, horses, and men shouting]

Adrian: Thanks Rob, for joining us today. That's going to conclude another episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. To learn more about the American Revolution and our home National Park sites, check out www.nps.gov/N I S I for Ranger Adrian at Ninety Six National Historic Site, www.nps.gov/O V V I for Ranger William at Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail, and www.nps.gov/K I M O, for Ranger Rob at Kings Mountain National Military Park. Thank you for listening and we hope you enjoyed it and that we will see you next time we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

William: Thanks everyone. Bye.

Adrian: Bye.

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

[sounds of musket shots, horses, men shouting]

William: I'm Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I'm Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site.

William: Together we will explore some of the well-known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to make the history.

Intro: [sounds of men shouting, musket shots, horses]

Adrian: Hello, welcome, and thanks for joining us. Today, Ranger Will with Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail is going to tell us some about the overmountain men and the trail that they took to get to the Battle of Kings Mountain. And you said from Kings Mountain as well, right?

William: Yeah. So we are telling the story of their journey to the battle on October 7, 1780, but then also their return back home.

Adrian: So starting us off, who are these men?

William: So our name, you know, the Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail, it kind of comes from the term overmountain men. That is the kind of the nickname that was given to the Patriot settlers, the frontiersman who live in what is now Eastern Tennessee, Southwest Virginia, places that were over the Appalachian Mountains, technically across the boundary line, in many cases from the Proclamation Line of 1763. But also as that line had been kind of increasingly pushed West with the following treaties. They're still considered over the mountain men, backwater men is another name for them. But yeah, these guys from like beyond the frontier. So our focus is the primary route. That's the trail and where the trail follows the primary route they used to get to the battle. But you also saw men coming down from Southwest Virginia. So around the Abington area. There were several hundred who came from what is now the Yadkin River Valley of North Carolina, kind of for those who are familiar with Western North Carolina, Elkin, Wilkesboro, Lenoir. But then also you had a lot of South Carolinians and some Georgians who were kind of following in a separate path. Many of these guys were actually refugees from their home states who had fled up into North Carolina to escape the many British victories that had been happening the summer of 1780. And so they're gonna be kind of following a roughly parallel route, joining up with these guys at a few different times and finally combining their forces right before the Battle of Kings Mountain.

Adrian: OK so, if they're, you know, outside of really civilization, it sounds like, why do they care?

William: Right. So for a lot of these guys, when you look at their service records, some of their leaders in that Overmountain region, Isaac Shelby, John Sevier, William Campbell those are gonna be some of the big names for those Western guys. Isaac Shelby. He is actually off doing his own thing. He is at the time of the Southern Campaign, really kind of kicking off with the British capture of Charleston, SC on May 12th, 1780. Biggest British victory of the entire war. They're pushing inland. You've got the battle at Waxhaws, which is spun into a huge propaganda victory by the Patriots. Telling the story of a British massacre of surrendering men, that story spreads like wildfire. So it's either the news of the fall of Charleston or it's the news of Waxhaw that finds Isaac Shelby as a surveyor way up in Kentucky, and he returns back to his home, his home district in North Carolina raises the militia and comes down to help. He had seen some prior service with the Continental Army, mostly as a quartermaster supply kind of guy with the western frontier. And so he's gonna come down and be involved in numerous skirmishes and raids in South Carolina. But John Sevier, another one of those big Overmountain leaders, his service doesn't really come over to the eastern side of the mountains until this story. Most of the time he was staying there in what is now East Tennessee worrying about fights with the Cherokee Nation, who had been pretty strongly allied with the British. There had been some splintering going on after 1776 and 77, but there are still elements of the Cherokee Nation who are very pro-British wanting to view a British alliance as their best way to defend their homeland. So they're going to be fighting against the settlers who are creeping ever westward from the mountain line. And William Campbell, at first he refuses the call to aid the call to join in with this mission. He says no, his hands are full. You're looking at a lot of these frontier areas have a lot of loyalists. And William Campbell is in charge of keeping the Loyalists suppressed, so keeping them so intimidated, so scattered that they're not able to organize and pose a threat to Patriot control. So a lot of these guys are very kind of…

Adrian: So it's hard to do if you're gone, right?

William: Exactly, especially if you're like, not just me, but you want to bring my best men to go on this little goose chase. Like I've got stuff to do, man. In fact, one nickname that William Campbell had, he was Washington County, Virginia, is where he was located. One of his nicknames was the bloody tyrant of Washington County because of how strict and harsh he was on the area Loyalists. Of course, that is a loyalist nickname for him.

Adrian: Right.

William: But you're looking at not only locally minded, but in Southwest Virginia you have a lot of lead mines and it's gonna be the lead mind in these communities that is sent to George Washington's army up north. So there is a big picture impact of if they leave and if their home districts fall into loyalist control. If British allied Native warriors are able to coordinate with these loyalists and help attack the Patriot garrisons, patriot communities, there's a lot of concerns to keep these guys home. But the real kind of the line in the sand, the catalyst, the last straw. This comes when the British are able to start pushing into North Carolina. South Carolina had been pretty well pacified as far as they're concerned. Of course, a few holdouts remain. But one of the British plans to succeed in the South was use of Southern loyalists. Local loyalist settlers, especially Frontier loyalists. So Patrick Ferguson is a British major with the 71st Highlanders. He has given this kind of experimental group called the American Volunteers who are actually from New York and New Jersey, Philadelphia, this small like 90-95 men. These guys are sent out to be kind of the backbone of a loyalist frontier army. So they're going to be recruiting local loyalists. They are the left wing, the western side of the British advance from South Carolina into North Carolina. So he is pursuing all these small bands of Patriot partisans. He's getting up into the Blue Ridge Mountains. And he is being very effective. He's very good at raising this loyalist army. He actually views loyalist militia as, as people as subjects.

Adrian: Yeah. Which is pretty unusual, isn't it?

William: Right. You see a lot of British officers that they, they do not have a great relationship with loyalist militia, partly due to poor past performance. Loyalist militia had been ambushed several times, defeated several times. They've surrendered key outposts either through siege or intimidation. So British officers are some of them are just like, look, they're not worth the effort. These guys are useless. And Patrick Ferguson says no, they can be great soldiers, they're loyal. They're passionate. You just have to support them well.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: There's a lot of his letters to Cornwallis that survive, in the Cornwallis papers. And one of them even points this out. He says, of course, they have a bad reputation. You threw them into a fight into a campaign without giving them proper equipment or officers or training. Of course they're going to do bad. Give me the chance.

Adrian: That's like telling a 5-year-old to go, you know, do something that an adult has a hard time doing.

William: That first grader messed up my taxes. I don't trust first graders. Yeah.

Adrian: Yeah, exactly.

William: So he's saying no, you just have to give them the proper officership and you, you can't use them like you would a regular British Army. You have to use the skills that they're bringing to the table. And Ferguson lays all these out in letters. He's like, look, they are good horsemen, they're good marksman. They're inured to hardship, is how he puts it. Use those abilities.

Adrian: I would think that they know the land and that would be a huge asset.

William: Especially. They’re local people, they know the roads, the mountain gaps, the good river crossings, but also the British are having the hardest time with men like Francis Marion, men like Thomas Sumter, men who have mounted militias, who know the terrain, who hit and run. And Ferguson has the idea he's pitching it to Cornwallis, he says the Loyalist frontiersman have these same skills. They're also great horsemen and marksmen. Let us use them that way.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So this is kind of his time to shine. This is his experimental campaign where he's given permission to go prove it, put his money where his mouth is. So one officer says that Ferguson is easily recruiting up to 4,000 men in the Backcountry are signing back up with the King's militia.

Adrian: It's amazing what a little respect will do.

William: No kidding. And again, you have 4,000 men, but this is under well, this is after years of living under patriot control.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So the fact that you've got 4,000 men are willing to step up bear arms and risk their neck, their property, their families. That's very impressive. There's a few times that Ferguson's officers who keep some diaries and journals, they even talk about there was an issue in camp where the militia officers disagreed with something. So they stop the column, like Ferguson orders a halt to to meet and discuss with them and clarify everything, smooth it out and then they keep going. You're not gonna see other British officers engage in a town hall meeting with people who they feel are beneath them.

Adrian: No.

William: So I could talk about this guy for way too long. But yeah, because of how successful Ferguson is, because of how he is getting closer to the Blue Ridge Mountains and these settlements he kind of becomes identified as enemy #1, because of how good he is at raising a loyalist army, which is one of those big concerns of these frontier leaders are those local loyalist communities. They think, man, if he gets here and these people are given the chance to take up arms, it's gonna be “Bad News Bears” for all of the Patriot leadership who's trying to hold on.

Adrian: Yeah. Okay. So what is it in particular that Ferguson does other than being good at recruiting that really finally kicks these men? I mean, you had, what, 2/3 that were pretty much homebodies that, OK, we, we've gotta actually step up. We gotta travel. We gotta leave these areas to in the long run, I guess protect our own homes?

William: So this is where I've got a little bit of a different opinion.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: The usual story about what really puts the pedal to the metal for these frontiersmen to start chasing Ferguson is that he threatens them. The story goes that he sends a message and he's threatens them with hanging their leaders and laying waste to their country with fire and sword and all these different things. And that's why they realize, hey, we have to get this guy now before he can cross the mountains and get us.

Adrian: Yeah, I can see where that would drive people.

William: Ohh yeah, it it's a great story.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: The only problem is we can't prove it. So, this story, the earliest reference I can find to this happening is on July 1st, 1822. So, 40 years after the battle, there are some letters there's being passed back and forth between Isaac Shelby and John Sevier, and some of these are put together in a pamphlet and they get published and I actually have it here in front of me. I'll read from it. It says, quote, he paroled, being Ferguson, “He paroled a prisoner one Samuel Phillips, a distant connection of mine and instructed him to inform the officers on the western waters that if they did not desist from their opposition to the British arms and take protection under his standard, he would march his army over the mountains, hang their leaders and lay their country waste with fire and sword.” End Quote, so that's the story.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: However, we have Ferguson's letters to Cornwallis, and because Ferguson knows that the spotlight is on him to put his money where his mouth is and prove that he can do this job, he is constantly sending Cornwall this updates and every little detail of what he's doing, what he's saying, where he's going. So we know that he does send a message. He does release some paroled prisoners to carry these messages back to their frontier patriot leaders. But he includes a copy of the message that he sent.

Adrian: M-hm.

William: And it is one of the nicest things you'll ever read, very conciliatory, very explanative going on and on about how the Congress has lied to the frontier Patriots. What's really happening in the war? What peace offers are being offered by the British? The harshest thing that he says, in the entire proclamation is that if you fail to take this offer, if you fail to return to the loyalist militia, we will still protect your property, your women, and your children. That is the harshest thing, he says.

Adrian: That's a huge difference.

William: It is, it is. So the question comes, what really was the message, you know?

Adrian: Yeah.

William: The same time that Ferguson is saying that he'll be nice and he'll keep you safe you have other loyalist officers and British officers burning homes, burning churches, executing prisoners. So potentially when Isaac Shelby received this message, he didn't believe it.

Adrian: Yeah, yeah.

William: And he says, yeah, sure. You're gonna be nice. Uh-huh, I've seen what happened with Thomas Brown at Augusta with James Wemyss in the low country.

Adrian: Right.

William: I don't believe you for a second. So yeah. Did Ferguson say it? We can’t prove it.

Adrian: Right.

William: Not according to all the evidence.

Adrian: It doesn't really sound like something that he would say just, you know, based off of what you've already said about him and you know things that I know about him and it really does not sound like something he would say.

William: He's a very much a velvet glove approach.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: And part of this is because he is Scottish, he his family is lower nobility. So he's been involved in a lot of political debates before the revolution about the rights of man, the rights of Britons wherever they be, whether they be Scottish, English, American, whatever. So he's very aware and conscious of he's very much that, like an Enlightenment kind of thinker.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: He grew up in that circle. His parents were big figures in that in Edinburgh. So for him to kind of switch gears, the argument is made that he just finally gets frustrated and he can't catch these groups of frontier partisans. They keep striking his army. He's he just snaps. It's like, fine. I've had it. I'm gonna come after you. But I think if he had sent some really harsh terms, he would have let Cornwallis know.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Cause again, he's wanted to document everything he's a bit of a suck up.

Adrian: Do you think it's possible that not just the actions of other, the other leaders, British and loyalist leaders, but also are, do you think that it's possible that maybe the couriers the messengers maybe rewrote the message or tampered with it somehow? Something of the sort?

William: There's a possibility of that. The one idea that kind of follows that is, you know, if you have been captured in arms by the British Army, by the Loyalist militia by Ferguson and he says that he only is paroling the people who have taken an oath, and they prove trustworthy like he's not gonna send out some shady looking extremist.

Adrian: Yeah, true.

William: He's gonna find a guy that he trusts to take this back to the leaders. So, for example, Isaac Shelby says he received this from Samuel Phillips, his cousin of some form.

Adrian: M-hm.

William: But Ferguson says he sends this to several people and no one else talks about it. So if there had been this across the board, you know, tampering with the message…

Adrian: Right.

William: You know, it would have been different. It would have popped up in different places.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Now there is a possibility maybe if Samuel Phillips lost the message. Well, I mean, he's released. He's paroled with this message from the plantation of Gilbert Town, which is now Rutherfordton, North Carolina. And he doesn't arrive at Isaac Shelby's home until quite a few days later. Way up in the Blue Ridge Mountains near the Tennessee border. There's a lot of hazards that can happen on that journey.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So if he did lose the message, possibly, and just had to kind of remember, adlib, recall it from memory.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: But I think the biggest theory that I have is Isaac Shelby didn't believe it. Of course, there is the conspiracy that Shelby received the message and saw how threatening it was. This is more threatening than fire and sword. Ferguson is threatening with…

Adrian: Being nice!

William: …cooperation and peace! Right. And he sees how effective that would be with the local people. He’s like, well, we can't let that happen. So he embellishes a bit.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Again, can't prove it one way or the other, but it's one of my favorite kind of conspiracy theories…

Adrian: It is!

William: …to discuss about this campaign.

Adrian: It is kind of a fun one. So they've received some type of message we don't know for sure what it says. But either way, the end results the same. All these men gather up and they start. They start heading towards Kings Mountain. So is there anything really significant that happens while they're on the march? How long does it take?

William: So it takes them about depending on which group you want to follow 13 to 14 days. So roughly 2 weeks. and now one thing to.

Adrian: How long is it again? Like how many miles?

William: So the entire Overmountain Victory Trail is 330 miles. However, that is including two branches. If you want to imagine kind of a kind of a Y shape. You have the overmountain men coming down the left branch, the Yadkin Valley guys coming down the right branch. They join at the middle and then proceed together.

Adrian: Okay.

William: And the biggest thing to kind of remember too is that they don't know where they're going.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: They are gonna end up at Kings Mountain. But their goal is just to find Ferguson and catch him wherever they can. So there's gonna be several times where they think they know where he is and they swoop in and he's gone.

Adrian: Ahh.

William: Or they lose the trail and they think they've lost him entirely. It's a very much hunter-tracker kind of cat and mouse game.

Adrian: So when you look at the map, you kind of see it kind of meandering around a little bit and that's probably why: because they're doing this cat and mouse?

William: Yes, it it's if you grab a map of the Overmountain Victory trail. It's a bit squiggly. Part of that is just the basic road networks trail networks that were available, but also sometimes they're not exactly sure where they're supposed to be heading, and they have scouts and spies constantly sent out. But kind of the big gathering. The big story starts when you have about 1,000 of these over mountain frontiersmen gather, and what is known as Sycamore Shoals. Today it's Elizabethton, Tennessee. This is big wide river bottom area. It's a great well known gathering point and it’d actually been the site of a huge conference with the Cherokee Nation and the Transylvania company back in 1775 when they purchased tens of thousands of square acres. Um, I'm sorry. No. Square miles of territory. So it's a well-known gathering place there. And on September 25, you have 1,000 men meet up there from all different parts of the frontier. The next day, they begin making their way up and over the Blue Ridge. And they've been coordinating with those other groups in the Yadkin River and elsewhere. So the plan is for these two groups to join kind of at where those Y-branches meet. What's now, Morganton, North Carolina. But then it was a very well-known plantation called Quaker Meadows. A home of a the local patriot militia officers.

Adrian: OK, so they've made it to Sycamore Shoals. They've got this meeting. What happens after that?

William: It rains. A lot.

Adrian: Of course.

William: Uh, yeah. In fact, they start to go up the western face of the Blue Ridge up and over the Appalachians, and the rain is bad. They get to such high altitude that it turns into snow. They describe it as a shoe-mouth deep. So 3-4 inches deep on September 27th. They crossed the Appalachian Trail today they cross Yellow Mountain Gap, which is actually highest altitude seen by an army anywhere in the revolution.

Adrian: Oh wow.

William: And this is a huge issue, a huge factor for their success in my opinion, because Patrick Ferguson knows they're coming. He has spies everywhere. He has, again his reports to Cornwallis. On September 19, he writes to Cornwallis saying, yeah, I've just received word that these leaders, he calls them by name, he calls how many guys they're bringing with them. He's like, I've heard they're gonna be gathering to make their way over here and try to cause trouble. I don't believe they'll actually bring as many men as is reported. Spoiler alert. They do bring that many men, but he says that they're gonna go up through the flower gap is how he believes them. So that's actually up in Virginia, roughly Fancy Gap, Virginia I-77. He thinks they're gonna go up and around the mountains and then descend into North Carolina. But they just come up and over the mountains which shaves…

Adrian: So the shortest route, but maybe not the easiest route.

William: Yes. Absolutely. They even have to turn back their food supplies, their beef on the hoof. They're gonna try and drive cattle with them. But with the wet conditions, the steep trails up and over, it's slowing them down. It's not gonna work. They turn them back. But this does shave days off of their expected journey. So when they do finally descend the eastern side of the Blue Ridge Mountains and reach this gathering point at Quaker Meadows, Fergusons letter of that day to Cornwallis. Almost regular correspondence. The letter is like, yeah, we expect them to cross into this side of the mountain the next day or two. It's like, man, they've already done it. They're already there.

Adrian: [laughs]

William: But there's just this little bit of a delay in what Ferguson is expecting and where they actually are and when he does realize that his information is wrong, that they're closer than he thought, that they have more men than he expected. His tone changes a little bit in his letters.

Adrian: So does it become more panic? Just more desperate, like how does it change?

William: It becomes super cocky, super overconfident.

Adrian: Ohh.

William: He goes, because he gets excited. He has been chasing after these little groups all summer and they're always slipping away.

Adrian: And now they're finally coming to him.

William: They're all coming together in one place. He actually thinks they're making their way to you.

Adrian: Oh yeah?

William: He thinks they're coming to Ninety Six. And he’s like this is perfect. I’ll stay right here in the middle of all these converging groups and I’ll be able to block them from uniting and pushing on the British garrison at Ninety Six. And later he realizes oh, they are not going to Ninety Six they’re actually converging on me.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So changes his tone a little bit.

Adrian: And how many men does he have at this point?

William: Not as many. He's very careful with his numbers. His letters start to be increasingly encoded, in ciphered, so that they can't be intercepted. He's got, I mean, eventually, by the time he gets to Kings Mountain, he has roughly 1,100 with him. However, when he is first getting these messages, 5-6-7 hundred because he's dispersing large groups of his men. There's local loyalist militia nearby doing their recruiting, gathering food, gathering supplies, gathering information. So as he starts to realize, hey, they're coming from me, his letters start to be, hey, coordinate. Gather up, bring them in, try and consolidate.

Adrian: Right.

William: He's asking for reinforcements from Lord Cornwallis. And his biggest thing that he wants are cavalry. Ferguson began his military career as a 15-year-old Dragoon, so he has mounted experience. He knows the value of good mounted soldiers. So he's asking every time he sends a letter, he asks for half as many because he knows he's not. He's not getting any feedback.

Adrian: Right.

William: It’s just so many patriot militias between Ferguson and Cornwallis that the messengers are having to be so cautious and so careful, and it's slowing them down so much. His first letter is like hey...

Adrian: And where is Cornwallis at this time?

William: Yeah. So he's in Charlotte.

Adrian: Okay.

William: The British captured Charlotte in late September and this is when Lord Cornwallis writes about it's like sitting exposed on a hornet's nest, all this flurry of…

Adrian: Great line!

William: It is, Charlotte Hornets man.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Is all these partisan militias around the area are just ambushing supply groups and they're picking off messengers. So these couriers from Ferguson to Cornwallis are so delayed that at first, Ferguson says, hey, send me 800 good soldiers part Dragoons doesn't hear back. Next letter, okay, 400 part dragoons, part cavalry. Doesn't hear back. His final letter is like, okay, just 200 good cavalry. And I'll do what I can. But yeah, he then that's one reason why he's kind of, again, he's trying to prove that he can do this. Remember, this is his experiment. This is his time to shine. So he's not wanting to just turn tail and run all the way back to Lord Cornwallis and Charlotte. He's wanting to try and get on a good advantageous ground. Get enough reinforcements that he can use his army, that he's been just pouring his time and his efforts into training and organizing and preparing. He wants to show that they can do this. So he's not really high tailing it back to Charlotte. He’s just trying to get a good spot where his reinforcements can find him, but he doesn't get the letters from Cornwallis that are on their way that say I can't send anybody to you. I can meet you at the Catawba River, which is between us and you know, the 71st Highland Regiment is right there waiting for you. But you have to get to them. You can't come… I can't send the guys all the way out to where you are. It's just too dangerous. There's just too many patriot militias all in the area. It's too far for them to go.

Adrian: Okah. You mentioned that they, the overmountain men, would regularly lose Ferguson's trail. So when they lose his trail, how do how do they find it, again, and get back on it?

William: Right. So there are three kind of good times when they realize, you know, Rut-roh, we don't know where he is. One of those is actually over and what's kind of now Spruce Pine, North Carolina, near the North Carolina - Tennessee border. There's two good passes to use to keep descending through the Blue Ridge Mountains and they don't know where Ferguson is. They don't know how close he is. They know that he has a lot of locals with him who know the area and know the different trails, so they're worried if they like, for example, if they take the southernmost gap through the mountains and take that trail, well Ferguson is gonna take the Northern Trail and slip behind them and vice versa. So they actually split and they descend in two different trails. They're close enough, they're only one mountain ridge away that if there was a fight, they could hear it…

Adrian: M-hm.

William: …and they could kind of hurry over and help out. But that's why if you visit the Blue Ridge Parkway, there are two places that the Overmountain Victory Trail crosses the Parkway: at Gillespie Gap, where the Museum of North Carolina Minerals is located, and then Heffner Gap a little further north. So that's one time that they weren't sure where, and these two branches are gonna reunite as they get out of the mountains finally, on the banks of the Catawba River, what is now Lake James, North Carolina State Park.

Adrian: Oh right, yeah.

William: Yeah, a great site to visit up there. A second time that they lose his trail is a lot of Ferguson's proclamations, his letters, his big addresses had been sent from Gilbert Town. That big plantation just outside Rutherfordton, North Carolina. So they think he's there. So they're making their way south from their joining, their union up there at Quaker Meadows. And I'll throw out a couple of names real quick. And then when they get there, this is the home of Charles McDowell and his little brother Joseph McDowell. They are the leading patriot officers in that county. They're joined by Benjamin Cleveland from Wilkes County, Joseph Winston from Surry County. So a lot of kind of who's-who for that region are joining in with them. But they finally get, and they even think he's there so much they think Ferguson is for sure at Gilbert Town that the day before they get there, they rally the men and give them these, these speeches and they get them all fired up and they give the men, like, here's your chance. If you aren't up to it, go ahead and step out now, like they're ready to do it. And then they approached the plantation and a kid runs out and says, yeah, he's gone. He's been gone for like, a week.

Adrian: [laughs]

William: And this is partly just due to the weather. The rain had been so intense and actually kept these guys stuck in… I don't wanna call it camp because they didn't have like tents or anything. Just huddled under trees trying to get out of the rain for like, a day and a half. It's just the downpour.

Adrian: So that's something. What did they what did they take with them? I mean, they're doing this long track over the mountains. What do they bring with them? I mean, you. I know you said they had cattle with them, but as far as, like, what they have themselves for their own use.

William: Very little and the cattle never actually make it over the mountain. As soon as they start to ascend like man, these guys are slowing us down. They take some time to cut up some steaks, throw them in a bag on the saddle and the rest of the cattle are sent back down to the settlements. But it's literally just what you can carry. These are not Continental army. There's no order from Congress. There's no supply wagons. There is no artillery. There's no tents. These guys are just hunters and trackers. Frontiersmen who are bringing what they would take on any kind of hunting trip. They've got, they've got a rifle, a lot of them are mounted, you're gonna see by the time they finally end their journey, about half of them are mounted, half are on foot. They are bringing whatever food they can easily carry, but that is going to be burned through pretty quick. So then it just becomes a game of what can we find and now thankfully they are coming through in late September and early October. So it is kind of that harvest time of year. They're able to find some stuff here and there.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: But they are starving.

Adrian: And then you've got probably the rut going on with the deer. So they got one thing on their mind.

William: Well, there's that. And there's also a huge issue about any potential hunting. Uh, the weather is so bad. There's just so much rain as keeping the deer bedded down a lot. And also ammunition is scarce. One of the kind of common themes in these guys letters is they don't have enough gunpowder. They're writing to the governors. They're writing to the Continental Army, way up in Hillsboro, they're like, hey, we need ammunition. We need gunpowder. Whatever you can send. There was one woman in East Tennessee named Mary Patton, who was a powder smith, she made gunpowder. She had learned it from her father and she some stories say she donated some stories say she sold it, but either way, she gives these guys 550 pounds of her homemade gunpowder to use. But she gives this 550 pounds to a 1,000 man army. That's only like a half pound apiece, which that's not even a full powder horn.

Adrian: Yeah. Doesn't go far.

William: No. So they, they've got like one good fight, one good battle where they can hopefully stand a chance. And so they're not wanting to really spend that on these little hunting trips.

Adrian: Right.

William: But also they don't know where Ferguson is. They don't know where his spies and his scouts. So they don't want to be out there popping away at a deer and end up alerting Ferguson to how close they are. So you don't have a lot of accounts talking about hunting and finding food that way. It's mostly gonna be passing somebody's farm and grabbing some corn.

Adrian: Right.

William: Or a pumpkin patch here and there they talk about a sweet potato patch. So that's going to be very, very low rations. One guy actually says that by the end of this, they all came near starving to death is how Benjamin Sharp describes it. And I tried to actually calculate that up.

Adrian: M-hm.

William: You know what they talked about eating on the different days, the terrain they were covering, the mileage they were covering. So what, you know, calories in and out and it's a super rough estimate. But if you've been one of these guys walking from East Tennessee by the time you get to the battle, they're in a deficit of about -74,000 calories.

Adrian: Ooh.

William: And then they have to go back in the same conditions. So it it's it's very rough. They are starving. But yeah, so they're approaching where, they're approaching Gilbert Town. Ferguson's gone. So they lose the trail then, and the days and days of rain have kind of washed away any good tracks.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: I mean, Ferguson has wagons, but they can't even find any trail with from just all the rain.

Adrian: Sounds like the rain we've been having the last couple weeks.

William: Yeah, like, imagine that, but just a lot more, I think.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: But yeah, the last time is going to be on the Green River, kind of over near Mills River, North Carolina, Columbus, North Carolina that area, a place called Alexander's Ford. They were following a road. They not sure which way to go and they have kind of a bit of a meeting that night October 5th, 1780 and they realized, man, we ain't found anything. We're gonna give it one more day. We're going to try and find him. But if we can't find him, we're gonna assume he's gone. We're gonna assume that he's been able to get back to the main British Army in Charlotte, North Carolina, with Lord Cornwallis. And we can't possibly take on those guys. So gonna be Plan B. Find something else to do, cause some trouble, and then get out of here.

Adrian: Alright so, I know we don't, I don't want to go in the Battle of Kings Mountain itself. We’ll do that in another episode. But are there any stories that you just think are really worth sharing from their travels along the trail?

William: There are, I mean, of course there are. Do I have any fun stories?

Adrian: I know. [laugh]

William: So I mean, yes. So we talked about very patient and her gunpowder is one of my favorite stories there. You actually have another story where before these guys leave Sycamore Shoals, they're given this sermon by a local Presbyterian minister there named Samuel Doak. And he had been Princeton educated official certified Presbyterian minister. And he preaches to them about a, from the book of Judges in the Bible Old Testament, about where a small army went up against a larger enemy with this battle cry of the sword of the Lord and of Gideon. So these guys kind of adopt that message of this smaller force going up against a bigger enemy. And so they yell out the sword of the Lord and Gideon as they like, head out, you know, 1,000 of these frontiersmen, their wives and kids and friends seeing them off dogs, following behind, just cheering them on. I was kind of a cool image.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: You have some spies that they were using throughout this campaign and in fact one of them, Joseph Kerr, is gonna be the guy that comes to their camp, their last big rendezvous rest is gonna be in Cowpens. What's now Cowpens National battlefield months before the battle ever happens there, it's still a well-known gathering area. And you have Joseph Kerr. He describes himself as being disabled since birth. He doesn't say how or what, what was going on, but he says he was incapable of bearing arms so he couldn't serve in the militia. However, he still wanted to help. I mean, it's not gonna temper his, his, his fervor, his spirit any so he becomes a spy. And he says because of his disability, he could just go through any army camp, any militia camp and nobody thought that he was a threat. So he could just ride through Ferguson's camp and count the men and the wagons and the tents and see where they're going. And he just goes right back out and just goes and share this information. So he finds this massive army at the cow pens at Saunders Cow Pen and you've got the 1,000 overmountain men, the 500 Yadkin River guys, the South Carolina and Georgia kind of refugee groups with more North Carolinians they've joined in here with men like James Williams, Edward Lacy, William Hill. So there's like 2,000 of these starving rain-soaked, super angry frontiersmen. And here comes Joseph Kerr at, you know, in the evening of October 6th being like, hey, I found him. He's right down the road. So that's a that's a huge big thing. He actually goes with them. And he says he's at the Battle of Kings Mountain. Potentially he was kind of holding some of their horses because it's only the 900 kind of hand-picked best marksman with the best horses. They're the only ones who are chosen from this army of 2,000 to keep going all through the night of October 6th through a through another rainstorm, raining all night, raining all the next morning, and they're gonna be at the battle. So he says he goes with them. If he's incapable of bearing arms, possibly to hold on to the horses. There’s another spy named Enoch Gilmer, who they use a couple times. Who he was apparently a great actor. I think it was in one Lyman Draper's history book. He talks about he could kind of laugh and cry in the same breath and make you believe both.

Adrian: [laughs]

William: So he is sent in a few times to pretend to be a loyalist, get information from a local farm, and then report back. But then talking about this this campaign and where these guys go, Ferguson has three officers with him who keep pretty good journals and diaries or later write a recollection of the campaign. So again, in their perspective of how successful they are, how much the people like them in these communities, one of them even writes that they, they get up into North Carolina. And he says hundreds of people are coming in to sign up with Ferguson and show their support, and he says one woman was shocked and she said that did we not have heathens who ate babies or ate children in our army?

Adrian: Gosh!

William: And he's like, what have they been telling you? He was like, no, we don't eat your kids. So just this idea of these isolated backcountry frontier communities, you know, who knows what information they've been getting? Ferguson often makes a similar note in his letters of they have never seen a proclamation, or they have never heard an update of how the war is going. And Ferguson is continually making this pitch of he's like the only people who want to keep fighting for the Patriots at this point are either plunderers and murderers who are personally gaining from the war, or they have committed such horrible atrocities that they know they can't rejoin society, so they don't want, so they don't want peace. It's like that's the only reason you would want to keep going at this point. So yes, lots of stories to answer your question.

Adrian: [laughs] Alright, Ranger Will. So we've talked about, you know, the men getting to Kings Mountain. We'll go into depth with the Battle of Kings Mountain in another episode, but you said after the Battle of Kings Mountain, the men basically go back pretty much the same way?

William: Yeah. So they fight the battle, they win. You've got the 900 that were handpicked to go and fight at the Battle of Kings Mountain. They the next day, they rejoined the rest of their army, who are mostly infantry. The guys who either didn't have a horse or their horse was lame, or they were injured or something. They're going to reunite on the banks of the Broad River outside Gaffney, South Carolina, but now they have like 700 loyalist prisoners from the battle. So they having to guard these guys and they start making their way back up towards the mountains. At first, they're not too horribly worried. They're kind of taking their time finding plantations to stop at and get food, try to get some rest. But then they get increasingly concerned about a British rescue attempt, about British cavalry, especially kind of, you know, the feared, Banastre Tarleton his British Legion dragoons. They get it in their heads that he's chasing after them, so they start to really hightail it. They are gonna make one pit stop at a place called Biggerstaff’s Plantation on October 14. And what's happened up to this point is you've had quite a few prisoners able to escape.

Adrian: I would think keeping track of 700 would be difficult.

William: Absolutely. Especially when you look at these guys are starving and exhausted and they're not a disciplined regular army, they're just frontier fighters and hunters, so they're not used to standing guard like this kind of stuff.

Adrian: Right.

William: In fact, their tempers are so short they're so hangry that you see a lot of prisoners being murdered as they're marching down the road. It gets so bad that William Campbell, the Virginian, he had been kind of elected to be in charge of the army, he has to pass a general order on October 10, and ask the officers to keep their men from harassing and cutting down the prisoners in the line of march. These guys are also starving so much that they're start to plunder the homes that they pass by, regardless of who lives there, patriot, loyalist, whatever. And Campbell again has to pass an order. Being like look cut it out. He actually says that he fears that his own men are leaving their friends in a worse condition than the enemy would have done. They are just looting and destroying everything they can find. So they get to Biggerstaff’s Plantation. It's a well-known crossroads. You've got a nice big oak tree on a hill. Right in between these, this kind of fork in the road. They decide that some of these loyalist prisoners are too dangerous to keep alive to keep in captivity, because if they escape, they'll go and they'll report where they are, they'll reap vengeance on the patriot communities, so they have a trial right there on the night of October 14. They started about 7:00 PM and they call witnesses and they get a bunch of the local magistrates together who just happened to be Patriot militia officers. And they call witnesses and they hear testimonies and they end up sentencing 36 of the prisoners to be executed. So they start hanging them in groups of three from that big oak tree on the hill in the crossroads, they execute 9, and then they finally decide you know that that's enough. We gotta go. And by this point, it's like two o'clock in the morning. There's a couple of different theories as to why they stop. One theory is that one of these pardoned prisoners, he actually comes up and says, hey, thank you so much for saving my life. I wanna help you out. So by the way, Tarleton is on his way with cavalry. You gotta get going. And possibly that's why they cut it short and just get back on the road. But they don't stop. Like when they get going at 2:00 AM on the 15th, it's in a rainstorm again and they don't stop until 10:00 PM that night when they…

Adrian: Oh wow.

William: Yeah, they ford their way chest deep through the Catawba River. They reached Quaker Meadows again where they had visited on their way down and they finally can say okay we're safe. We're far enough away. The river's too flooded. We're now safe from pursuit. So that's when Campbell finally says, OK, you guys can start going home. The men had been heading home on their own so much…

Adrian: M-hm.

William: …that he actually says they were getting near a 1-to-1 ratio of guard to prisoner. He's like you guys. You gotta, you gotta stay with us, man.

Adrian: We can't keep these prisoners when it's just one to one or less.

William: And well, then the prisoners, the prisoners are carrying their own weapons.

Adrian: Uh, yeah.

William: They had they had removed the flint so that it wouldn't actually spark and it wasn't functional. But they are carrying their own muskets as kind of captured supplies.

Adrian: It can still be a club.

William: Exactly. And it says even the really healthy prisoners were forced to carry two muskets. And they're not being fed, or at least not fed everyday. Like, every couple days they'll toss like an ear of corn or a little pumpkin to them.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: But yeah, they get to the Quaker Meadows in Morganton, North Carolina. About half the army is dismissed back to their settlements where they, especially like the frontier guys John Sevier, William Campbell, these overmountain men, as soon as they get back home, there is already an expedition underway against the Cherokee Nation. So they get right back home and go catch up with those guys and end up fighting against the Chickamauga, Cherokee, Dragging Canoe’s warriors down in kind of East Tennessee, northern Georgia. So right into the next thing. And then the prisoners and the remaining guards are eventually going to reach Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Way up that way, where they're gonna try to hold the prisoners there until they figure out okay, now what? That's when some of these guys finally get relieved. You've got more militia coming in to replace them. And they're finally able to head back home.

Adrian: So Ranger Will you've told us some great information about the Overmountain Victory Trail. If people want to learn even more, where can they do that?

William: So there's a couple of great books out there. One is by Lyman Draper. It's actually the first kind of big history of this story, researched and written for the Centennial anniversary in 1880. It's called Kings Mountain and Its Heroes. You can find that in a few different bookstores and online. There's been several other books that have been put together, including the Battle of Kings Mountain, Eyewitness Accounts by Bert Dunkerly, which is just the eyewitness accounts of these guys who were on this trail. And in this battle. But yeah, numerous other books meant like Randall Jones writing more about the back story of the guys. But of course, you've got the Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, all those different places to get more information from the trail itself. But we are a 330-mile motor route, so y'all are more than welcome to come and explore that way. We also have sections of certified hiking trails scattered along that corridor, that route where you can actually walk either in the footsteps or at least within 1/2 mile of the footsteps of where this trail traveled back in 1780.

[sound effects of muskets, drums, horses, and men shouting]

Adrian: All right. Awesome. So that's going to conclude another episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. To learn more about the American Revolution and our home National Park sites, check out www.nps.gov/ N I S I for me, Ranger Adrian at Ninety Six National Historic site. And www.nps.gov/O V V I for Ranger William and the Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed and we will see you next time when we revisit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

William: Bye!

Adrian: Bye!

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

[Intro sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swards, and men fighting]

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William: I am Ranger William from Overmountian Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I am Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site.

William: Together, we will explore some of the well-known and not so known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to make the history.

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William: So, on today’s episode of Southern War we are going to be talking with Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site about some of the early history there of Ninety Six, and also a really great claim to fame. Adrian, what is such a big deal about Ninety Six early in the war?

Adrian: So, we are the first land battle in the South, for the war in 1775. So that’s a pretty big deal. It’s also the first patriot South Carolinian died during the war. So two pretty major events. William: Wow! No kidding. So to give a little bit of a better understanding can you tell us a little bit more about where the site is located and if there was any kind of special part of Ninety Six National Historic Site that featured largely in this first 1775 battle?

Adrian: Sure. So, Ninety Six is in Greenwood County, South Carolina. For people that may not know South Carolina, we’re about an hour from Augusta, a little over an hour from Greenville and Spartanburg, and about two and a half hours from Charlotte.

William: So would you say roughly kind of southwest part of South Carolina? Pretty fair?

Adrian: Yeah, maybe. Uh. Yeah, I guess so. Being a triangle it’s kind of hard to have directions. (laughs)

William: Right.

Adrian: But, yeah, I’d say that’s fair. Defiantly surrounded by a lot of National Forest. So, if you’re looking at maps with forest in them and you see a big green splotch kind of going toward the Georgia area we’re somewhere in there.

William: Nice. So now, I know there’s layers of history there with Ninety Six National Historic Site. Is there any certain part of the park or anything that can be seen that goes back to the 1775 clash?

Adrian: So we do have a stockade fort where the first battle took place. However, the reconstructed fort that’s there doesn’t look like the 1775 battle fort, it looks more like what the fort that was there in 1781 probably looked like. It’s much nicer construction than the 1775 fort.

William: And I’m sure we’ll get into some explanation about how it looked later.

Adrian: Yeah

William: But just for our listeners, a basic explanation. What is a stockade fort?

Adrian: A stockade is basically taking post tree trunks and sharpening one end and sticking it into the ground, basically making a pretty solid wall around a structure.

William: Okay, so like a solid wall of upright beams or post or tree trunks or something.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Now we’re talking about where it happened, we’re talking about where the site is. When did it happen? We’ve mentioned 1775, but when does that first battle take place?

Adrian: So it actually takes place in November. It’s November 19-21, when the battle itself is first happening, but you know there’s, we’ll get into this a little bit more, but there’s a lot that kind of leads up to it to understand the three-day battle and why it happened.

William: Yeah, by all means let’s dive into this. Is the best place to start talking about the three-day battle itself or do we need to start out with kind of key players or are there other kind of big moments or movements that kind of make this battle happen?

Adrian: So, I’m kind of thinking we might do a little bit of mix of all three.

William: Absolutely, take it away.

Adrian: First, I do want to address, because I know people are going to have questions about why it’s called Ninety Six. I’m not going to go into too much detail [Laughs]. But I will say that while we do not know for sure, it does show up on the map in 1730 when surveyor George Hunter is coming through and mapping the trail to the Cherokee. And it is believed, or at least the most accepted theory, is that they thought it was ninety-six miles from the closest Cherokee town, which was Keowee. So, just trying to get that little thing out of the way.

William: And the name stuck ever since. There is still a town of Ninety Six, South Carolina correct?

Adrian: There is. Yep, we’re two miles outside of town. So, know that we’ve got that out of the way, I figured I would start maybe a little bit with the raising of the militia. Because when the colonist, when the rebels, first start deciding to break away from England all the militia that are currently in existence answer to the crown and to the royal government. So that’s not normally a good idea to have those men fighting for you. And by this point all those participants of the standing militias different political thoughts and values. And so your going to have probably fighting within the ranks. So, the Proventil Congress in South Carolina decides to create three regiments of militia. Two of those will be in the coastal area and then there’s a mounted infantry in the backcountry. And so, it’s primarily this mounted infantry that is going to be taking part in the battle here in November or 1775. There are a few happenings before the first battle here. There are acts of war that are happening, but there’s no blood shed happening yet. Fort Charlotte is a pretty well-known one, that’s about 30-miles from Ninety Six to the southwest on the Savannah River. Fort Charlotte was in McCormick County, what’s today, McCormick County.

So, on July 12, Major James Mayson of that new mounted ranger group leads a group of his men to Fort Charlotte, and they’re commanded to take the gunpowder and the ammunition and the artillery and anything else that might be useful that was stored in that fort. That fort had been built, I believe during the French and Indian War, and was still in existence and was used primarily for storing ammunition and artillery and weapons for any future events. So, Mayson does that. He leaves his captain James Caldwell, which every time I read that name I think of you Will. [laugh]

William: Yeah. No relation, no relation.

Adrian: [laugh] But, he leaves James Caldwell in charge of Fort Charlotte and heads to Ninety Six. Now when they took Fort Charlotte there was no blood shed. It had been occupied by men loyal to the Crown, but they didn’t want to fight, they were outnumbered, and so they just said, “here you go, take it.” So that is the first kind of instance of hostilities and war in South Carolina, at least in the Backcountry, but like I said there’s no blood shed so a lot of times it kind of gets overlooked. But it does kind of kick things off in the Backcountry. And this is actually a point when you start seeing men switching sides already. The battles haven’t even started, and people are already switching sides. Captain Moses Kirkland originally was part of James Mayson’s ranger group, but he actually does change sides after they leave Fort Charlotte and start heading to Ninety Six. He abandons them and starts rounding up loyalist saying, “Hey, you need to take back this powder and this ammunition. You need to stand up and take it back and arrest him. And keep them from trying to take over the Backcountry.”

William: Interesting.

Adrian: I’ve read some instances of why Kirkland changes sides so early and one of the most interesting ones I read was that he was jealous that Mayson had been put in command. So, I don’t know if that’s true, but it is one of the theories that I’ve read. William: I was about to ask if we had any idea why Kirkland did that? Because when you look in some other reports from early in the war in the South, he is a very notable loyalist leader.

Adrian: Yeah!

William: Even visiting the British high command. Potentially being one of the big architects of the southern strategy the British later adopt. So that’s very interesting that he is one of those very early, probably very notable examples of how people for one reason or another, their view of the war and what is proper to be doing in this turmoil they shift, and they change.

Adrian: Yeah. And sometimes we don’t know for sure why that is. Sometimes we do. But, you know, like we said other times we can guess, but we’re not them.

William: Right. And even if we have like a written document, you know, how much are they going to put their honest motivations into the written document.

Adrian: Right. Yeah.

William: You almost need to get a time machine and go sit down with a cup of coffee to get the real story behind it.

Adrian: Right, right.

William: So, we’re looking at this happening in July.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: We’ve got quite a ways to go before the November 19, fight.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So, what’s your kind of next big milestone?

Adrian: So, Kirkland abandoned Mayson, and when Mayson arrives at Ninety Six he is arrested and he’s put in jail for all of the rest of the day. So, not a very long time. Then he’s released. The next big thing that happens is actually at the end of July. And what you get is the Council of Safety sending three men from Charleston into the Backcountry to try to convince the people in the Backcountry, especially those that are on the fence or siding with the Crown to join their cause, to join the rebellion, join the patriot cause. These three men are William Henry Drayton, so if anybody has been to Charleston you probably recognize that name, Reverend William Tennant, Reverend Oliver Heart. Heart doesn’t do a whole lot of traveling, he kind of does it for a little bit and then is out of there. But Tennant and Drayton do a lot of traveling. They travel sometime together; they travel sometimes separate. And both of them do end up in the Ninety Six area. Tennant actually keeps a journal, so we do have at least part of his journal that his son transcribed. I always think its kind of funny reading his journal because he’ll talk about how he harangued people for two hours after he gave them a sermon. [laugh] And how they’re so ready to sign, and I’m always thinking are they really ready to sign or are they just so tired of listening to you talk that they’re like, “I will sign anything to get you to be quiet.” [laugh]

William: The best interrogation possible, just put whatever paper you have in front of me, I’ll sign it just let me go, dismiss us.

Adrian: Right, right, right. [laugh] So, it is funny reading his journal just because of that. But, when they’re doing their travels, they travel from late July into September. So that’s a good long travel. But when they’re doing that, they do come to the area, its actually on the other side of the Saluda River from us, but the area between the Saluda and Broad River where it forks. And there they meet a lot of the loyalist captains for the militias and the leaders, including Colonel Fletchall, Lieutenant Colonel Kirkland; so again, he is still siding with the Crown at this point…

William: Got a promotion it looks like too.

Adrian: Yeah, yeah. Hey, you know promotions are a good driver, right? [laugh]

Majors Joseph Robinson and Jerimiah Terry and Captains Robert and Patrick Cunningham they do not, according to Tennent they don’t have a lot of luck swaying the people in that area of South Carolina. But when the visit Ninety Six according to Tennent, I’m going to quote him here. “Mr. Drayton harangued them and was followed by me. The audience appeared fully convinced.” Again, I’m questioning how convinced they actually are. [laugh]

William: The legitimacy of that claim. They appear convinced. They also were maybe asleep.

Adrian: Yeah, they may have been, like you know, glassy eyed.

William: Now I want to go back to something you said earlier, real quick.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: We’ve talked about Ninety Six. They’re going to Ninety Six, and it comes from the name for a trading post. You said someone was put in jail at Ninety Six. Can we talk a little big, real quick, about what was Ninety Six? Like why are the going there? There’s jail there, that’s a pretty big deal.

Adrian: Yeah

William: So, before we get into the fortification and we talk about the stockade, what is Ninety Six?

Adrian: So, Ninety Six is a colonial backcountry town. At this point there’s approximately 12 houses and businesses. Now, I’m sure a lot of businesses were taking place out of people’s houses at that point probably. But there is also a jail in the town because back in the 1760s there had been the Regulator Movement in South Carolina, and as a result of the Regulator Movement it was decided that the colony needed to be split into seven judicial districts. Ninety Six was the farthest west district. So, you’ve got the District of Ninety Six, which is a huge area, but the town of Ninety Six is actually made the district seat. And so because it’s the district seat it receives a jail and a courthouse. It sounds like a very small town to us today, but you know in the context of the day it’s a big deal it’s pretty impressive, especially for the backcountry.

William: I was about to say, “when people hear oh there were 12 houses and it’s a town, like jees come on.”

Adrian: Yeah. Well, the great thing is that Charlotte, North Carolina was about the same size.

William: Perfect. So, to put it in some context. When you’re looking at the backcountry in the Carolinas, people are here because the want farms, they want space, they want land. They don’t want to be in a town. So, to have, like you said, the same level as Charlotte at this time, a dozen or so houses together. It’s enough to be made the judicial seat and a jail constructed. That’s a really big deal. So, you’re looking at kind of the center of power for western South Carolina. This largest district is here.

Adrian: Um-hum. Yep.

William: Ok, so, that makes a lot of sense why there’s a jail, why they’re meeting there, why you’re able to gather a crowd. It’s going to the big time when you go to Ninety Six.

Adrian: It is. [laugh] Yeah.

William: Now you mentioned some names earlier too. This could maybe be worked in later, but could you tell us a little bit more about who the Cunningham brothers were? Robert and Patrick.

Adrian: Yeah, so, the two Cunningham brothers will play a big part in why this battle happens. But they are, originally the family immigrated to Virginia in 1681. So, by this point they’ve been here in the colonies for almost 100 years. And then in 1769, Robert and Patrick, who are brothers, moved to South Carolina. Robert settled on the Island Ford on the Saluda River. Which the Island Ford Road is one of the roads that goes through Ninety Six, so not too far from Ninety Six where he settled. Robert and his brother Patrick were both pretty significant men and well-known men and leaders in the backcountry. Robert was one of the first magistrates for the district, so that’s a pretty big deal. And then Patrick was a deputy surveyor. And they both where, you know, “No, we’re supporting the crown. We don’t agree with breaking off from them.” They’re pretty adamant on that, they do not change.

William: Well, do you think this is partly to do with their positions?

Adrian: Yeah.

William: I mean these guys seem to be up-and-comers. They are coming down in the 1760s to this new place to be. You’ve got political appointments, you’ve got magistrates and deputy surveyors, important people in the community. And compared to hey there’s this new rebellion going where we’re going to through off this system, it’s like, “well we kind of like the system it’s going pretty well or us.”

Adrian: Right! Why would we go against the system that’s working for us?

William: You think this kind of applies to a lot of your people out here in the district? Like why Drayton and Tennent aren’t having so much success at times?

Adrian: I think that’s part of it.

William: Because your people their pro-system.

Adrian: It’s part of it. The other part of it is that during the Regulator Movement, I think a lot of tension between the low country and the backcountry happened. Because the backcountry blamed a lot of the problems that they had back here, being the “wild west” basically, on the people in the low country. And there is still kind of that tension that’s going on. So, kind of a combination of things.

William: I want to clarify for our listeners though, that when we’re talking about the Regulators this is NOT the North Carolina Regulator Movement.

Adrian: No. Quite the opposite.

William: This is very different. Yeah. This is pro-government involvement. They want government attention; they want law and order like you’re talking about. If people want to read more about the situation in the backcountry prior to the Revolution, understanding the settlement and the Regulators, Woodmayson’s Journal as he is traveling through from Charleston talks a lot about how horrible it is and the need for law, and he becomes persuaded that, yes, it is the lack of attention from the low country, from the coastal government that’s caused such a bad backcountry situation. So, like you were saying a lot of tensions between the backcountry and the low country.

Anyway, so, we’ve got these low country guys, Drayton and Tennent, they’re touring around. They’re at Ninety Six, they are making appeals, they’re haranguing the masses. Sometimes successful, sometimes not. What’s going to hit the fan next?

Adrian: So they finally, Drayton, well Tennent is going to start returning to Charleston in September, but Drayton stays a little bit longer. And he finally decides, you know these people are not listening to me. They’re not agreeing with me. Or at least not enough of them. So, he decides to take over Ninety Six, and he actually decides he is going to arrest the men that oppose him, especially the leaders. So, on September 6, with about 120 militia and 4 swivel guns, he heads back to Ninety Six arriving on September 8. And he dispatches men to seize specifically Robert Cunningham. Cunningham, however, knows that they’re coming, so is able to escape.

Then on September 10, Drayton learns that loyalist under the command of Fletchall are getting ready to head out to Ninety Six to combat him. That actually ends up being a false rumor. Drayton gets prepared for it, sends men out to try to ambush that supposed army but it does end up being a false rumor. That they are not actually coming. However, they are, those loyalists, those men supporting the crown they are about ten miles away from Ninety Six and they are under the command of both Fletchall and Cunningham, well actually both Cunninghams. So, at this point tensions are getting high and so Drayton decides, well maybe we just need to talk this all out. So, he eventually decides, you know what I’ll do? I’ll draft up a declaration. I’ll have it read to everybody back here, and the commanders that are supporting crown they can sign it, and we’ll all be good. So he does this, and unfortunately, Fletchall signs it, but the Cunninghams do not. They do not agree to it. And so they say, No, we’re not signing it, we’re not going to abide by it, this supposed treaty.

Drayton, however, thinks that because Fletchall signed it everybody will follow him. Really what he ends up doing with this is kind of dividing the supporters of the crown even more. So you’ve got two factions. You’ve got the ones, yeah, we’ll try to abide by this treaty. And then the ones that are like, no, that’s not a treaty we want to follow, it’s not honorable. And Robert Cunningham is the main leader for the faction that is, this is not an honorable treaty. In fact he actually, when Drayton writes him asking if he intends to follow the treaty, Cunningham writes back: “I must confess I do not hold with that peace – at the same time as fond of peace as any man – but upon honorable terms.” I love he is like digging into Drayton there calling him not honorable. “But according to my principles, that peace is false and disgraceful from beginning to end[ing]. It appears to me, sir, you had all the bargain making to yourself, and if that was the case, I expected you would have acted with more honor than taken the advantage of men half scared out of their senses at the sight of liberty caps and sound of cannon, as seeing and hearing has generally more influence on some men than reason.”

So, I think that’s a great little nugget on how Robert Cunningham is viewing Drayton’s demands.

William: So, not even just Drayton, but you’re looking at his perception of those who do sign it. That little dig in there that’s like, well these are the guys that were just easily intimidated by your armed men, those four swivel guns you mentioned, those small cannon he’s bringing with him. These guys are almost like calling them cowards or something, that they’re not even going to stand up and fight for their own principles. They’re just going to get bullied by Drayton. So, he is throwing barbs left and right.

Adrian: He is, he is. And that letter really kind of sends almost a shiver down the Council of Safety and Drayton’s spines, because they’re like, “oh, this guy could be problems, he could cause a lot of problems for us in the future.” And because Cunningham refuses to sign this agreement the Council of Safety finally, truly calls for his arrest on October 23, or no they call for his arrest before that, but on October 23, Captain John Caldwell filed an affidavit at the Ninety Six Courthouse and charges Robert Cunningham with seditious remarks. Which is a pretty big deal.

William: Well yeah.

Adrian: Yeah, I know, right?

William: That’s one way to put it.

Adrian: Although, they’re seditious remarks for the rebellious government not the, maybe, government that may at that point have the rightful claim.

William: And that’s kind of one of the best parts about this story. About 1775 and this upcoming battle, is both sides view themselves as the legitimate legal government.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: You’ve got the men saying, “No, we listen to the Royal Governor and his council.” And then you have the Council of Safety saying, “No, it’s the Provincial Assembly, it’s the Congress.” So they’re both trying to really get as much, I don’t know if you want to say, “put a bow on it,” but enough legal set dressing to give their claims legitimacy.

Adrian: Yeah. So, after that affidavit is filed, Andrew Williamson actually does arrest Robert Cunningham. And Cunningham is then sent to Charleston where he is placed in jail. So he’s taken, you know there’s a jail in Ninety Six, but he is taken all the way the Charleston which is a 6 day horseback ride. Placed in jail there. When he has his hearing, he actually does acknowledge that he opposes the terms of treaty. No surprise, he wrote that. But he disagrees and disputes that he is citing a rebellion. However, his arguments pretty much fall of deaf ears, and he’s charged with high crimes, and he is placed in jail for an indefinite sentence. And that indefinite sentence does not set well with a lot of backcountry residence.

William: So you’ve seen the patriots are slowly taking power either through convincing and argument or arresting key leaders. You’ve seen a split in the loyalist faction between those that are willing to maybe find some kind of neutral terms, some kind of peace with the rebels. And those who are saying no this is ridicules we’re drawing the line. Now the drawing the line leader, one of the big names, Robert Cunningham has been arrested. This is making other people angrier. Do we know if his arrest, you said it impacted the backcountry loyalist a lot. Do we know if this persuaded any of those who were in favor of a peace and neutrality, if it persuaded them to get more militant, more extremist because of the treatment of Robert Cunningham?

Adrian: Yeah! It did. And actually, it kind of had the opposite effect in some ways than the Council of Safety would have hoped. Because a lot, you know Tennent and Drayton have been traveling through the backcountry saying “these are the reasons that we need to split up from the King. We’re not getting fair trials. We’re not getting sentences that are fair.”

And then they see this happen and they are like, “wait he has an indefinite sentence? He’s not told how long he’s going to be jail?”

William: In Charleston.

Adrian: How is that any different?

William: In Charleston when we have a jail right here.

Adrian: Yeah, how is that any different than what y’all are complaining about?

William: Flag on the play definitely.

Adrian: So, it actually there’s some instances where it sways those men who may have actually been, “You know I think I kind of agree with these rebels, these patriots.” But they see that and they’re like, “What are you talking about? You’re acting exactly the same way.” It doesn’t work the way that they thought it would.

William: Not only do you see it kind of aggravating some of the more neutral loyalist, but it’s also tempering some of the resolve of the backcountry patriots is what you’re saying, because now they’re seeing these big ideals that they supported. They don’t see them in practice. They kind of see the opposite.

Adrian: Yeah. Exactly.

William: So, what’s going to happen next?

Adrian: So, next, imagine this, his brother Patrick is very unhappy. And so his brother Patrick gathers a group of men and they start heading for Charleston, with the intent of freeing his brother. They don’t actually ever make it to Charleston. When they are not too far from Ninety Six they come across a supply wagon. And this supply wagon, if you go back to when Drayton was visiting the backcountry, after he came up with his little Treaty of Ninety Six and he heads back to Charleston he actually stops at the Congaree, near Columbia today. But he stops at the Congaree, and he meets some Cherokee leaders. And to convince them to at least stay neutral while the coming disagreements, battles are happening he tells them that the Provincial Congress will be glad to send them supplies, especially trade goods. So, this wagon is the result of that agreement between Drayton and the Cherokee. However, Robert or sorry, Patrick Cunningham comes across it with his men and says, “Hmm. Look they’ve got all this gunpowder and lead that they’re sending to the Cherokee.” So, they capture it, it never makes it to the Cherokee. And he starts spreading a rumor that that shipment was to be used for a loyalist massacre. Doesn’t matter that that’s not actually what it was to be used for. You know rumors are rumors and they are very prevalent. And so that starts turning even more people in the backcountry to the loyalist side.

The wagon driver, he does escape, and he reports to the patriot leaders in the backcountry and tells them what happens. And so Major Andrew Williamson, the man who had arrested Robert Cunningham, starts mustering his militia. He is for about two weeks camped at the Long Canes, waiting for his militia to increase so that they can go and take back this shipment. His militia group finally grows to about 560, somewhere in that range. However, at the same time, people under Cunningham are joining him, and the tory group grows to about 1900. So, the patriot group is way outnumbered.

William: I mean, you see lots of reasons though. You’re seeing the increasing militant, I can’t thing of the word, militarism, militantism of the backcountry loyalist with the arrest and the treatment of Robert Cunningham. You’re seeing some of the patriots possibly persuaded back to the loyalist side by the actions of the Committee of Safety. And now like you said the power of a good story, the power of this rumor, that this ammunition shipment was from the patriots to the Cherokee Nation to try to form an alliance and try to attack the backcountry loyalist. There are few things more powerful than fear, so you can see a lot of people saying, “well this is obviously not the side we want to support.” And so yeah, we’re looking at you said 1900 loyalist in the area.

Adrian: About 1900.

William: And now only about 500 patriots under Williamson.

Adrian: And a lot of those patriots are from out of the state. They’re from Georgia and North Carolina.

William: So, do you see that also? Does anyone write about increasing amount of loyalist stepping up and taking up arms because of the outsider patriots coming in? Saying they feel like they’re invaded.

Adrian: I don’t know that I’ve seen any documentation of that. Yeah, I’ve not seen anything, not to say it’s not out there, and it’s defiantly a possibility.

William: Right. Cause I know the boarders are pretty fluid at this time.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: People are always moving. Event when we see later in the Revolution groups will go back and forth and fight, cause it’s kind of their local community if it’s near the border, even if it is across the river.

Adrian: Well, and you know Augusta is right there, right on the boarder. So.

William: Yeah, Augusta, Georgia there on the river. So does Williamson, what’s he going to do now? He is horribly outnumbered.

Adrian: Yeah, he is horribly outnumbered!

William: Well, the loyalists have also captured the shipment of ammunition so their more numerous and armed. How is he going to pursue this? Is he going to actually try to find this ammunition or is going to have to change plans?

Adrian: So, Williamson wanted to, you know, march over to the loyalist and attack them, but because he’s so outnumbered, he actually has a council of war. And the council of war convinces him that instead they need to take the defensive instead of the offensive. So, they decide they’re going to go to Ninety Six. So on November 18, they leave Long Cane and start heading to Ninety Six. They arrive at Ninety Six on November 19, about dawn. So, early in the morning. And they chose an area to start building a fort. And the area they chose is across the Spring Branch from the town to the west. And they chose this area because there’s a farm that has some outbuildings. And since it’s a farm it’s relatively clear, there’s not a lot of cover. And it’s at a high point. And so, you know you want the high ground. They start building a fortification around the outbuildings that are there. They’re actually using the outbuildings as part of the fortification. And so, this is where we describe this lovely fort. [laughing] It is made from the outbuildings, old fence rails, cowhides, and baled hay.

William: Ok.

Adrian: Literally, whatever they can get their hands on. William: Old fence rails, cowhides, and some gathered up hay is what they’re going to use to stop bullets?

Adrian: Yep. Like I said it’s a really pretty fort, right?

William: And I guess that part of the idea here is that yes you can have some good cover with the buildings, with the fence rails, but I’m not sure how sturdy those cowhides would be. So more of a concealment kind of thing, just trying to hide your numbers and your movements?

Adrian: Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking, cause yeah cowhide is not going to stop a bullet. Not unless you put it, I guess, over a hay bell…? I don’t know. [laughing] But that’s what they recorded building the fort out of.

William: Sounds like some ballistics testing we need to do.

Adrian: The patriots did also have a few swivel guns. So, they mounted those swivel guns. So, a swivel gun is basically, I like to refer to them as baby cannons.

William: Baby cannons.

Adrian: Baby cannons. They’re very cute. But whereas a cannon has a set carriage that travels on, you can actually lift the barrel of a swivel gun up and it’s got a yoke that it sits on. You can find a tree stump hollow out a section of the tree stump and plop the gun down in there and because it’s on a yoke you can swivel it around. Typically, you’re looking at between a half a pond shot to maybe up to a two-pond shot. Not very big.

William: And if people need to get more of a visual reference for these you can see these in a lot of pirate movies correct?

Adrian: Yeah! Yeah, they do end up a lot on ships, but their used pretty readily in the backcountry from the French and Indian War, and probably before as well, through the Revolution.

William: So, you’re talking about a very mobile weapon, a very significant weapon if you’re comparing this to your average hunting rifle.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So, he’s in this makeshift fort, Williamson, 500 patriots, you’ve got these little baby cannons hiding behind a cowhide. What’s going to happen next?

Adrian. Yep. Some rifles and muskets, whatever the men have with them, he’s got some cows for food. But the loyalist troops under Robinson and Cunningham arrive the same day, so the 19th, at about eleven o’clock in the morning. So, Williamsons really only had three maybe four hours.

William: Not long.

Adrian: To build a fort. Yeah, not long at all. The loyalist kind of make a fanfare out of it. They approach with drums and banners, so, it sounds a lot more exiting. But they occupy the village, the courthouse, and the jail. Got a lot more people probably need a lot more space.

William: And then this area, you described it as it is to the east of this fortified hilltop, it’s down and across the creek, the Spring Branch Creek, on the next high ground.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: So, they’re defiantly within site, watching this big loyalist army make a big show if it. Um, when do we start shooting?

Adrian: [laugh] So we start shooting actually later this day. But first the two sides do try to come to agreements before shots are fired. Um, but while the commanders are talking it out kind of halfway between some of the patriots are seized. They had, two of them at least, had come out of the fort. We don’t really know why. Don’t know if it was, “hmm, I wonder what’s going on,” you know nosiness or what it was that causes them to leave the fort before any treaty had been agreed to. But they came out of the fort and the loyalist seize them. When that happened Andrew Williamson commanded the patriots, you know, to save his men, and this ends up actually causing the first shots to be fired. So, the first shots end up being fired because two men wanted to potentially see what was happening.

William: Just cause some goobers wanted to be looky-loos you’ve got shooting and the Revolution has begun.

Adrian: Exactly.

William: My goodness.

Adrian: Yep, so the shooting continues until about 5:30 in the afternoon, which you know it’s November so it’s probably starting to get dark. So, hard to see. There’s kind of sporadic shooting throughout the night, but nothing constant. And then on November 20, the following day, the shooting resumes when the light, when the sun comes back up. And this day the loyalist actually attempts to burn the wigs out of the fort. They try several things. First, they try to set the field on fire to create a smoke screen and kind of, you know, hoping it will burn toward the fort, but it doesn’t. It fails. The other thing they try is to create a shield of sticks and branches, a giant shield, that they can push forward with, so they can get closer to the fort. And their hoping that with that using that they’ll be able to get right up on the fort and set it on fire. But instead, they actually catch their shield on fire. [laugh]

William: Hmm.

Adrian: Maybe they just need to stop trying to use fire.

William: That’s oh-for-two with the fire approach. Yeah.

Adrian: I know! Yeah. So, the fighting continues through the 20th. Again, when it gets dark it slacks off. And then on the 21st it resumes in the morning. At this point Williamson is running out of water. And so, his men start digging a well. And they dig about 40 feet before they hit water, but they got water now. Unknown to a lot of his men, they are also running out of ammunition and gunpowder. So, Williamson is kind of not wanting to tell them, the doesn’t want to cause them to abandon hope, so he keeps that to himself, that they’re running out of powder. He said, he wrote later on that, “We had not above 30 pounds of powder, except what little the men had in their horns.”

Finally at around dusk the loyalist wave a flag from the jail window signaling that they want to parley. And so they, you know, the two sides send out men they come to an agreement that the next morning they’ll meet up and figure out what the peace agreement is going to be, if there will be a peace agreement. So, finally on November 22, in the morning the commanders of both sides meet. They actually meet at a house in the town. And they are almost ready to sign the peace agreement, when they’re surrounded by a couple hundred loyalist who are demanding that they, that the patriots hand over those swivel guns that they had had. So, the commanders kind of both say we’ll add that into the agreement. But there is kind of secrete agreement between them that after three days they will hand those swivel guns back over.

William: Hmm.

Adrian: So, it is kind of a who wins this battle? Neither side I would say.

William: Right, cause your looking there with the swivel gun surrender you have, well on both sides you kind of have the leaders have a bigger understanding of what’s going on and the impacts. Williamson realizes he cannot keep fighting; he can’t hold on much longer. You have the loyalist they just want peace, even if it means leaving these four baby cannons in the hands of the rebels. We’re going to stop this; we’re going to have peace again. And, then the men with their tempers, “no we want this, we want to win.” Ok what can we do to meet in the middle how can give these guys that sense of victory, but still make it palatable to both and just get back to peace.

Adrian: Right, just go home. And it’s not known for sure why the loyalist signaled they wanted the parley. I mean as far as we know they’re not running out of ammunition. You know they’re not stuck in a fort; they’ve got water. As far as we know they’ve got food. But it is thought that they knew that there were reinforcements under Charlestonian Richard Richardson coming up to help Williamson out.

William: Oh, so patriot reinforcements.

Adrian: Yeah, a bunch of them coming up from the low country. So, you know it’s thought that that knowledge may have, “Hey let’s get this done with before they get here.”

William: Right. Now do you think if Williamson had known, do you know if Williamson knew about Richardson’s approach? Do you think it would have given him resolve to hold out longer?

Adrian: I do not. But I do think running so low on ammunition he is probably like, “Okay, yes let’s get this done.” But at the same time, we’re saving face. You know, we’re not the ones asking for parley.

William: Ahh! Good point, good point. Um, he’s like, “Yeah we’ll keep going until you know it’s settled.” And he’s secretly like, “Oh, thank God. We’re done with this.

Adrian: Yeah, that’s what I think personally.

Williamson: Interesting. Now you mentioned that this is the first battle in South Carolina in the Revolution. This is where you have the first South Carolina patriot killed. What do we know about that man? Or do we know what day, or how this happened in the fight?

Adrian: His name was James Birmingham; we don’t know a whole lot about him. He was more of like a private, but he did leave behind a widow and several children. And so, in the later years, you know, his family is given land and some money because of his death.

William: So, we have James Birmingham, fallen, killed. What other casualties are we seeing on both sides after this three day shoot out?

Adrian: Yeah. So, the loyalist, or the patriots had James Birmingham was the only one killed, they had twelve wounded. For the loyalist you get conflicting information, depending on who is writing. So the loyalist claim that they have one dead, Captain Looper, and that they had, I think they said they had twelve dead. Kind of the same number. But other sources, like Mayson, Mason wrote, “We have only one man dead since this battle and eleven wounded. The enemy say they had but one man dead, who is a Captain Looper, and about the same number wounded as ours. By the best information they have buried at least 27 men and have many wounded.” So, we don’t really truly know what the number for the loyalist was.

William: So, you kind on wonder, when you talk about the scarcity of ammunition. Williamson is running out. The Patrick Cunningham group seizing that gunpowder store. Three days maybe they were firing away, maybe, looking at the casualty numbers, it was more of a slower rate of fire. Trying to aim shots and conserve ammunition. In talking about…

Adrian: Yeah. I mean also, like you know, we’re all neighbors. We might not agree but do we really want to kill each other? William: That’s something else to consider is your looking very early. This is the first shots in anger in South Carolina during the war.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: You don’t have a lot of that brutal personal feud that will kind of exemplify the Revolution here in the South in later years. Maybe they saw the loyalist, patriots saw the loyalist working on different things out in the surrounding tree line, the surrounding community, and their saying, “oh they’re just trying to save face. We got them better than they are going to admit.” Kind of stuff

Adrian: Yeah. You know a lot of these are, like the one I just read, is Mayson like a week later writing a letter to the Congress telling what happened. So, you know, is he trying to make himself and his troops look better?

William: Yeah, cause nobody ever has a political agenda in official reports or anything.

Adrian: No.

William: So, when we’re looking at these three days, they finally come to a truce, an agreement in the town of Ninety Six. What do they do? To kind of wrap us up, what’s going to be kind of the fallout from this? Are there any kind of ripples that are unexpected?

Adrian: Yeah. Um, so, part of the agreement was, other than the handing over of the swivel gun, part of the agreement is that both sides basically go home, and the other side will not harass them. And there is actually a section in there that says any reinforcements, that are on their way are to be held to this agreement. I think that is probably put in there for Richardson. However, when Richardson gets up here, he decides that that does not apply to him. And so he completely ignores the peace treaty, and he starts rounding up and chasing and arresting all the loyalist leaders that he can find. And you actually get the Snow Campaign, which I think we should probably talk about in another episode.

William: For sure.

Adrian: Yeah, but it basically though leads to a majority of your loyalist leaving South Carolina and a lot of them going to northern Florida.

William: Okay. So, you’re looking at everyone’s agreeing bygones are bygones, let’s call it a truce and head home. And then here’s someone saying, “Surprise!” and everybody’s under arrest.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Probably not a lot of good faith shared by the loyalist that’ve seen this happen. They thought they cold negotiate, they thought they could come to terms. And here’s a patriot leader saying, “no, I’m not going to follow your rules.” So, I could see where that would really undermine relationships later on.

But, Adrian thank you so much for talking to us about this first battle, the Battle of Ninety Six, November 19th through 21st, 1775. Are there any kind of recommended readings, recommended places for folks to go and learn more about this event?

Adrian: Yes. So, there’s actually several books that you can find a little bit more information on this battle in. There’s the South Carolina in the American Revolution: A Battlefield History, it does actually cover really quickly the battle. There’s March to Independence: The American Revolution in the Southern Colonies 1775-1776. I kind of like how that one is set up because it goes through the seasons and in each season, it divides up the colonies, the southern colonies. There’s always The Snow Campaign: The First Land Battle in the American Revolution in South Carolina. It primarily of course talks about the snow campaign but because the battle here is leading up to the Snow Campaign, it’s kind of the kickoff to the Snow Campaign there’s a good bit of information in that book as well. And then of course there’s always primary sources, if you can get them. But that’s getting easier, especially with digitalizing stuff.

William: Right, for sure. Well, again thank you so much. I think this is really important to our understanding of the rest of our series here. Talking about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution, you’ve got to start with the first battle in the Southern Theater of the Revolution.

So to learn more about the American Revolution and our home National Park sites check out www.nps.gov/nisi for Ranger Adrian and Ninety Six National Historic Site like you just heard about. And www.nps.gov/ovvi for me, Ranger William, and the Overmountain Victory National Historic Trial. But that’s going to conclude this episode of Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So, thank you for listening we hope you enjoyed, and we’ll see y’all next time when we visit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: Bye.

[Outro sounds of drums, muskets, and men fighting]

William: Hey everyone and welcome to Southern War, a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. [Intro sounds of drums, horses, muskets, swords, and men fighting]

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William: I’m Ranger William from Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail.

Adrian: And I am Ranger Adrian from Ninety Six National Historic Site.

William: Together, we will explore some of the well known and not-so-known stories from the American Revolution here in the American South. Time to make the history.

[Sounds of muskets, horses, and men shouting]

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William: So, this first episode is going to be more of an introduction to what we’re looking to accomplish here. Ranger Adrian and myself are National Park Service rangers, both at two Revolutionary War sites here in the American South. And we are going to use this to explore into a little more depth some of the stories here in the southern part of the American Revolution, both some of the influential events, locations, actors. Really kind of get a deeper understanding that connects all of these different National Parks, State Parks, and other sites here in the American South. So before we get kind of too started with this, Ranger Adrian, tell us a little bit more about yourself and where you’re from.

Adrian: All right. Well thank you Will. So as Will said, I am Ranger Adrian and I am at Ninety Six National Historic Site which is in Greenwood County, South Carolina. Originally I am from York County, South Carolina, so just about two hours away from here. But I went to school in Charleston and my dad was actually a huge part in me becoming a park ranger. He was a big history buff, especially the Revolutionary War, so every time we went somewhere we had to stop and see the sites. And that love of history just kind of was past on and you know you get to be older and grudgingly you have to say, “Thanks Dad for making me stop at all these sites I didn’t want to stop at.” I have a major in Historic Preservation and Community Planning from the College of Charleston, so you know, been surrounded by history for a really long time. But I’ve been here at Ninety Six for eight years now and hope to stay for a good long while.

William: And Adrian, what’s one of your favorite things about working there at Ninety Six National Historic Site?

Adrian: So, I really like that we have such a long time period we can cover. And y’all will find out as we go through the podcast what I’m talking about. But we’ve got pre-Revolutionary settlement through post-Revolutionary settlement. So, I like having a long time period to look at, it makes things interesting.

William: So, and if people get the chance to come down and visit Ninety Six what would you say is, I know we’re going to get more into the details about the history of the site in later episodes, but what would you say is one of the key things, one of your favorite things that you always recommend getting a chance to see and explore for people that get a chance to visit?

Adrian: Oh, I definitely suggest walking the main battlefield trail. You’ll see the Star Fort, which is the only remaining earthen star fort that we know of from the Revolutionary War. It would be really cool if you could also see the mine that’s there, but unfortunately can’t see that. But it is there, so that’s another really cool thing, really cool resource that we have. We have these two Revolutionary period engineering marvels almost, that are, you know, original and that are almost 250 years old.

William: And now when you say mine, you talking coal mine? Gold mine?

Adrian: Laughs. Yeah, no military mine, so really more of like a tunnel.

William: Okay. So I am Ranger William, and I am the interpretive ranger for Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. I’ve been with the trail at the time of this recording 4 years now and I’ve been involved with the National Park Service for 10 years. I’ve been involved with other historic preservation societies, organizations, historic sites for about 5 years in addition to that. Grew up in a military family. I like to claim kind of the upstate of South Carolina, the Spartanburg area as home. I actually got into history, um kind of the converse of Ranger Adrian’s story, I was the one dragging my family into it. Grew up in a town with a lot of history, a lot of historical events, and I always wanted to go and see these reenactments these living history demonstrations. My family started volunteering there to help be a part that and then as soon as I got the chance to start working in the field, I jumped at it. So, I have a history degree, a Bachelor of History degree from North Greenville University and a masters in Park and Recreation Management from Clemson University.

Adrian: So, what would you say is your favorite part of the Overmountain Victory Trail?

William: Ooh. If you’ve ever watched the Lord of the Rings movies, and you just love the adventure and the drama of when you have the Fellowship of the Nine on their way to Mordor, climbing up and over the mountain. The big sweeping vistas and dramatic music. Take those guys but make them patriots. That’s pretty much the story here. There’s a few great places where you can go and explore. We’re kind of unique in that we are a National Historic Trail, not a battlefield or a quote-unquote park. So, we are a 330-mile motor route, with 87 miles of certified hikeable trails scattered along that corridor, where you can actually retrace the route used by thousands of patriots in September and October 1780 as they were making their way to the Battle of Kings Mountain. So you have this sense of drama, this sense of adventure, especially when you’re able to go hike on places like up in the Blue Ridge Mountains, up on the Appalachian Trail, and see this is where these guys walked. This is the mountain pass, this is the gap they used, this is where they made their camps, and set foot in those same places. So, we’ll get much more into the details of that story and the drama in a later episode. But just the chance to be there and kind of witness part of this exciting quest, I guess you could call it, is one of my favorite things about it.

Adrian: I’ve never thought of that comparison, but that’s actually really good. [Laughs]

William: Yeah, you have, you know, John Sevier, Isaac Shelby, Benjamin Cleveland. You have my rifle, and my hatchet, and my powder horn. You can direct comparison with these guys.

Adrian: Yeah. So I know you’ve been hiking and videoing your hikes a lot. Have you done all 87 miles yet?

William: No, I have not. At the time of this recording, I’d like to think I’m about halfway. There are quite a few portions that are on my to-do list, which hopefully I’ll be able to knock out soon.

Adrian: Awesome.

William: So, know that you kind of, everyone knows a little bit more about us, about our home parks, let’s get into some of the details about what we’re going to be talking about. One thing I want to point out is our introduction. We are a podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So, Adrian tell us a little bit more, explain to the folks why we went with this theater designation and maybe not the Southern Campaign, which they will hear in other places.

Adrian: Sure. So we went with the Southern Theater because we wanted to be able to cover more than just the dates from 1778 to 1782 or 3. And there’s so many stories that fall before the official Southern Campaign, which like Ranger Will said, you’ll hear more about later on. And if you are a Revolutionary War buff you know that the Southern Campaign is covered a lot of places. So, for example, the next episode is going to be on the first battle of Ninety Six, and that first battle happens in 1775. That is outside of the dates that the Southern Campaign traditionally covers, and so because of the really fascinating stories that happen before the 1778 fall of Savannah, um, you know we want to include all that we can and let people get the whole story for the South and not just the later part of the war. So, hopefully that kind of answers your “why the theater instead of the campaign?” question.

William: Yeah, absolutely. And something to point out too, is when we’re talking about the Southern Theater, lets talk a little bit about where we’re going to be talking about.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Because south is just a direction, so its pretty relative. I mean if we were a couple New England sites, if we were hosting this out of Lexington and Concord, and the southern part of the war, I mean shoot that’s everything. So being located in the Carolinas, like we are, with Adrian at Ninety Six in South Carolina and myself with the Overmountain Victory Trail, we are Tennessee, the Carolinas and Virginia. So to us the Southern Theater of the war is going to be Virginia south, and we’re going to hopefully get all the way down to Florida. Covering everything from the coast from Savannah, Fort Moultrie, Sullivan’s Island, the Outer Banks or North Carolina working our way all the way into the mountains, into the Appalachian Mountains. We are going to kind of draw a line; however, we’re not going to go too far west past the Appalachians. Simply because then you’re kind of getting more into what would be considered the Western Theater. At least that’s the line that we are drawing for the sake of just trying to contain how far we stray with this podcast. But we are defiantly going to want to get into the Floridas. Not sure how much we’ll get into the Gulf Coast campaigns, but Florida up to Virginia, beaches to the Blue Ridge. What do you think, Adrian, something like that?

Adrian: Yeah, I think that sounds good. There’re so many stories just within that constraint.

William: And if we end up needing to go on some adventures later on we’ll maybe do a little disclaimer that we’re going on a field trip.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: Now when we’re talking about the war here in the South though, I want to, before we kind of wrap up this episode. I want to talk a little bit more about how the war is going to look here in the South. So for example, one thing that folks often ask me about the fighting in the Southern Theater is who are some of your main belligerents? Who are some of your people who are always going to be fighting? And I think it’s important to remember, it’s important to remember some history that’s been forgotten, I guess is how you could put it. When you look at some of the early history books written by both American and British historians and veterans, from the late 18th early 19th century, they don’t call it the American Revolution. And Adrian, I’m sure you’ve seen this as well, but they call it a civil war.

Adrian: Yes

William: They call it the American Civil War, the American Rebellion. Can you explain a little bit more to people why it’s being called this and what, kind of give them a taste of what they’re going to find in our adventures?

Adrian: Yeah, sure. So, especially in the South and in the backcountry, where both Will and I are, the Revolution really was by definition a civil war. You had basically neighbor against neighbor. You had brother against brother, brother against father. I’ve even found you know cases where, maybe the woman didn’t go and fight, but she was supporting maybe the loyalist side instead of the rebel or patriot side. So, by all definitions the Revolution, especially in the South, is a civil war. So yeah, and in the South, you do have people coming from outside of the South and fighting, but again even at Ninety Six for our 1781 battle, the second battle at Ninety Six, everybody with the exception of one person during that siege is born in America. So even if they’re not from the South, and are from the North or somewhere else, they’re still an American by birth. And so ,yeah, it’s definitely a civil war.

William: Yeah, same story with me. With Overmountain Victory, I mean, you’re looking at from my estimates at least 2,000 patriot frontiersmen are gathering and pursuing a British officer, Patrick Ferguson. He is a Scot, but he is leading an army of locals. Now he has about 90 loyalists, Americans from New Jersey and New York who were aiding him, but the majority of his army, about close to 1,000 more men are local; they are backcountry. And just like you said there are plenty of cases, documented stories of brothers against brothers and fathers against sons. Which I would love to share. Maybe we’ll do a whole episode about some of the personal split family nature of the fighting.

Adrian: Yeah, that would be awesome.

William: Now, have you come across the John Adams quote about the population being in thirds?

Adrian: Yes, I have.

William: What is your take? So, for those who haven’t heard. At one point John Adams was asked about the American Revolution. Which, I mean if you had the chance to ask John Adams about the Revolution, by-God you would do it.

Adrian: [laugh]

William: But, he famously said back that the population was divided in thirds, one third being for Revolution, one third being against it, and then that last third being neutral. What is your opinion? What is your explanation for his quote?

Adrian: Well, I kind of think, you know, maybe earlier in the war that there probably were more people that were just kind of neutral. But war in your back yard kind of tends to sway you one way or the other, so by later in the war I kind of wonder if it’s not leaning toward one side or the other and fewer that are actually neutral. And of course, there are also cases that we see where people are fair-weather fighters and are constantly changing sides. So. [laugh]

William: M-hm.

Adrian: Yeah, I don’t know. I definitely think it’s one of those things it’s hard to know and today, we’re not there and can’t know for sure. But what about you? What do you think?

William: I like your opinion that it’s more of a “when in the war you’re looking at.” For me, I’ve always kind of explained that as a “where.” How you know John Adams being in Boston, New England, Massachusetts.

Adrian: M-hm.

William: Up there perhaps you did have more of that last third, folks who were able to be neutral at least kind of passingly keep their heads down, give lip-service to whatever side was in power. Adrian: Right.

William: For me I think in the South you don’t see that. At least you don’t see that after 1775. There’s one letter from Nathanael Greene, who is a Continental Army general, takes command here in the South on December 3, 1780. When he is writing back to his wife Caty a lot of his letters will talk about the horrors of fighting here in the South and how difficult things are. But one of my favorite little, one of his quotes where it’s something to the effect of, “where with us the difference between Whig and Tory is a difference in sentiment, but here they pursue each other with little less than savage fury.” I’m kind of paraphrasing a little bit there, but what he’s noticing is that here in the South, people seem to be taking it more to heart. I think you have a lot of other factors at play that are making people fight so much more viciously. Adrian: Yeah.

William: And one example I want to bring up, which is going to be kind of tied in with your story especially. Let talk a little about Thomas Brown. Adrian: Yeah.

William: Thomas Brown is going to be one of those guys who is going to attempt being neutral in 1775 but is going to be confronted on his plantation outside Augusta, Georgia. He is going to be approached by the Committee of Safety, so this is going to be one of your very early pro-patriot, kind of pseudo-government bodies, organizing themselves to oppose the British. He is going to be approached by the Committee of Safety. He is going to refuse to sign and join with them. And this is actually, I’ve got here in front of me, a account of what happened. He says quote, “I was ordered to appear before a committee then sitting in Augusta, and on my refusal to attend a party consisting of 130 armed men headed by the committee, surrounded my house in South Carolina and ordered me to surrender myself a prisoner and subscribe a traitorous association. I told them my determination to defend myself if any person presumed to molest me. On their attempting to disarm me I shot one of the ring leaders. Being overpowered, stabbed in many places, my skull fractured by a blow from a rifle, I was dragged in a state of insensibility to Augusta. My hair was then chiefly torn up by the roots, what remained stripped off by knives, my head scalped in three or four different places. My legs tarred and burnt by lighted torches from which I lost the use of two of my toes and rendered incapable of setting my feet to the ground for six months. In this condition after their laying waste a very considerable property, I was relieved by my friends and was conveyed to the interior parts of South Carolina.” So there you just have one account of someone who attempted to be neutral, who attempted to not get involved. So, I think that’s going to be more or a regional difference compared to the Northern New England colonies and than here in the South.

Adrian: Oh, definitely. And that just reminds me, you know, South Carolina has some really crazy nicknames for some people. And you know he is “Burntfoot Brown.”

William: “Burntfoot Brown,” right up there with “Bloody Bill Cunningham.”

Adrian: Burntfoot Thomas Brown. M-hm. You read that, what he went through, and I’m yeah if somebody did that to me, I would join the other side too.

William: And it really does kind of come down to at what point is force too much force? Adrian: Right.

William: Because you do see both sides at different times during the war using coercion, using threats, using intimidation, but then you do see it kind of counter-swing. You see, okay if you go too far, if you are too strict you’re actually going to force people away from your side.

Adrian: Right. Well and you know, the same thing, well not exactly the same thing, he’s not tortured like that, but Pickens later in the war his home is destroyed and that sends him to the patriot side. After he’s said yeah, I won’t fight anymore.

William: Yeah, to be fair I think Pickens was kind of just waiting for the opportunity.

Adrian: I think so too, but it was kind of, the British and loyalist side definitely messed up when they burned his home. Gave him an excuse to break parole. [laugh]

William: But one last note I wanted to include about Thomas Brown and talking about the civil war nature of the Revolution here in the Southern Theater. April 12, 1778, so spoiler alert, Brown is going to go on and be a large loyalist leader, he’s going to go on scouting missions, raiding missions. At first just for the Governor of Florida, not under the British Army. But he is going to report back on April 12, 1778, about how many loyalists there still are in the Carolinas, in the South, two years, or almost two years after the Declaration of Independence. After independence has been declared, after the war has taken on a very different tone. And in his report, he says that between the Broad River and Saluda River, so kind of your very up northwestern part of South Carolina, Brown reported that there were 2,500 loyalists. He says there were “1,000 more on the South Fork, a considerable party in the Congarees” so that’s around Columbia, South Carolina today, “and 2,800 on the western border of North Carolina.” So, this is something important to remember. Here you’re looking at 1778, again two years after independence, this is going to be only a few years away from where the main British Army is going to reach the same areas during their Southern Strategy, their Southern Campaign. You’re looking at a very large loyalist population. It’s not quite certain exactly how many people were living in the backcountry at this time. We can’t get like a percentage break down. But going back to John Adams with his thirty, thirty, thirties; Adrian what would you say your kind of patriot-loyalist division was percentage wise?

Adrian: Oh gosh. By that point I lean towards probably, I don’t know. They always try to say that there’s a lot of, you know, loyalist support back here, but I kind of think if there is that they have been suppressed for so long that it’s really more of a “well I kind of think that way but I’m not going to stick my neck out.” So, I would say, oh I don’t know, forty percent like die-hard patriots with maybe another twenty percent like “yeah, I’m just joining so I don’t you know get on the wrong side or something like that.” Geesh I don’t know. [laugh]

William: So, I was actually going to say something similar. Yeah, I was going to say a forty-sixty split. But that middle ten to twenty percent, it is a spectrum. It is important to point that out.

Adrian: Yeah.

William: That just because someone is a voting patriot, or they are supporting the patriot cause, that does not necessarily mean that they’re going to be out in arms with the patriot army. And if they see massive British victories their resolve may not hold. They may go into hiding. They may rejoin the King’s militia, take the Oath of Neutrality. We’re going to get into all of this later on I’m sure. But yeah, so again you’re looking at John Adams’s famous one thirds explanation of the loyalty of the people maybe not holding so true to the American South. Be it because of a different place or at different times. But yes, what you’re going to be seeing here in the Southern War Podcast, you’re going to see a lot of references to the civil war nature of the fighting, to these militias, these neighbors, these locals, these friends now being in arms against each other. Now one more thing I want to clarify. Adrian what are your favorite terms to use when we are talking about these two different sides?

Adrian: I find myself usually using loyalist and patriot. I think primarily because, you know, I talk to a lot of school groups and those seem to be the terms that they know the best. I try to not use, you know “the British,” unless someone really just has no clue, because as I mentioned earlier there is nobody from England here at Ninety Six. They might have been British subjects but they’re not from England, they’re not British royal soldiers, or regular soldiers. They are like you said militia. They are Royal Provincials from America. So, I tend to stick with patriots and loyalist.

William: So, I kind of have a soft spot for Whig and Tory.

Adrian: Yeah, the old fashioned.

William: Yeah, just because of how much these terms appear in the period sources.

Adrian: Yeah, I do like those terms. It’s just when you’re talking to modern day people. [laugh]

William: Right. So, I mean it definitely needs a little bit of an explanation, which is why we’re doing this podcast.

Adrian: Exactly

William: So, kind of a controversy around these terms, or a need for explanation we’ll call it more than a controversy, is the terms “patriot” and “loyalist” are kind of open to interpretation. You know are you a true patriotic Britain?

Adrian: Yeah, they’re kind of misleading.

William: Yeah! I mean are you loyal to the Congress? Are you loyal to the King? Who are you a patriot for?

Adrian: Right

William: Both sides are fighting for their government and their country. Whereas Whig and Tory define more of the political thoughts, not quite political parties yet, but the political groups that are in British Parliament, where one was more for parliamentary power and restrictions, and the other was for, I guess we can call it a more restricted government. The Whigs being a more restricted government. Tory being more big government.

Adrian: Yeah. Right.

William: So, those are some of the terms, and you’re going to see in different history books. If folks go and they read a couple of different authors, especially if the history books are written across different decades, you will see a variation. And if folks want to use patriot and loyalist, Whig and Tory, rebels and Tories.

Adrian: Rebels, yeah.

William: All different kinds of choices they are going to run into there.

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William: Well so, so far, we have covered an introduction into who we are, Adrian and myself. Just a little bit about Ninety Six National Historic Site and Overmountain Victory National Historic Trail. We talked about where is the Southern Theater, why we are doing the Southern Theater rather than the Southern Campaign. And probably spent far too long discussing the ins and outs of loyalism and the social divide that you’re going to see here in the South. Adrian any closing thoughts before we wrap up episode one?

Adrian: No. Just if you want to check out our parks you can do that through the n-p-s.gov website and you can actually find us either at our individual websites. I’m at n-p-s.gov/n-i-s-i and Ranger Will is at n-p-s.gov/o-v-v-i. Or you can search through topics and find us under the American Revolution.

William: They sure can. And I also want to do a plug for our social media. If they want to be able get in contact with us we have our Facebook pages for our different sites, as well as our Instagram, Southern Campaign N-P-S, and our YouTube channel as well, Southern Campaign N-P-S Parks. But that’s going to conclude our inaugural episode of Southern War, the podcast about the Southern Theater of the American Revolution. So, thank you for listening we hope you enjoyed and we’ll see y’all next time when we re-visit the Southern Theater of the American Revolution.

Adrian: Bye!

[Outro sounds of drums, muskets, and men fighting]